From cmhart at shaw.ca  Fri Jun  1 09:21:18 2007
From: cmhart at shaw.ca (Colin Hart)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:21:18 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium
In-Reply-To: <auto-000156906786@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEMJDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
	<auto-000156906786@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <d3c2a30e7bd8.465fe50e@shaw.ca>

Pencil me in for teaching Voice Projection. I will need to know date and location so I can make sure that the date is clear and that (B) I can do my utmost best to keep it clear!
Colin.

----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Martel <quentin at shittimwoode.org>
Date: Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:49 pm
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium

> 
> Thank you for autocratting this event, Theocharista!
> 
> Sign me up for teaching a class on the OP and on serving as 
> retinue herald.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> - Quentin Silver Yale 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
> [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Rosemary
> Underhill
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:39 PM
> To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium
> 
> 
> Hello All:
> 
> As you may know, Tir Righ is planning its first Heraldic Symposium 
> for next
> February.  I know its a little early, but I would like to know 
> what classes
> or subjects the heralds of Tir Righ would like to see included?  What
> classes do you think we need most to help our newer heralds?
> 
> Your input will help to make this a good  symposium and I really look
> forward to hearing from you.
> 
> Thanks heaps,
> 
> Theocharista Red Flame,
> Consulting Herald, Tir Righ
> Symposium autocrat.
> 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.3/824 - Release Date: 
> 29/05/20071:01 PM
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.4/825 - Release Date: 
> 5/30/20073:03 PM
> 
> 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.4/825 - Release Date: 
> 5/30/20073:03 PM
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
> 



From cocinera at shaw.ca  Fri Jun  1 11:46:18 2007
From: cocinera at shaw.ca (Rosemary Underhill)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:46:18 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!
In-Reply-To: <auto-000155676639@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>

Hi Silver Yale, and my other fellow heralds of Tir Righ

Not sure of the answer to this one, as I haven't heard back from the last
set we sent to their Highnesses.  I had hoped you might have been given some
feedback on these at  Investiture.   However below is what I copied to  Her
Highness Caoimhinn from the e-mail I sent to you on badge repatriation.  And
to my knowledge, no decisions have been made on these.

"The Alpine lily would conflict with the use of "their Alpine Highnesses" in
Summits. I have looked at Edelweiss, at on checking the O&A it would
conflict checked with multi petaled flowers. The Kingdom of Drachenwald has
the "Order of the Edelweiss" so, we would have to have it modified if we
want it. For example "The Order of the Ice Edelweiss" and suggested badge
could be Azure within an orle an edelweiss argent slipped and leaved or.

The Lumiere du Nord. I can find no medieval example of an order that has a
direction included in it. Also, I remember the problems we had when we
wanted to have our Principality called "The North". Laurel Soverign of Arms
ruled it conflicted with the North of the American Civil War. Lumiere is
perfectly plausible and we could, as I mentioned call it the Lumiere of
TirRigh as there are many examples medievally to support this type of name.
We could try to define it with a colour such as the Lumiere Or then all we
would have to do is define what the lumiere is, a candle? a torch? etc. I
also suggest the "Order of the Light Bearer" which can be documented by the
"The Sword Bearers" Livonia, 1201CE.

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.
I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn
who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

I like the idea of creating a name for the award that would also match a
herald, but I don't know how far from the original award concepts their
Highness would want to move to create such serendipity.  At the moment we
have no awards that would coincide with a voice herald for example and
neither Lilies nor Lights can be easily worked into it.  Although with
tongue in cheek, I suggest Lumiere for a Court Herald, as it is what they
need most to read scrolls in a dark court.  :)

There is also, the Glowing Ember, the Guardian and the Princesses Talon of
Favor didn't pass either ( as you will recall, they were the next group to
deal with after the above 3 had been sorted out)  and they might have some
room for adjustment as  well.  I will start working on them, and I would
love to have input from Tir Righ's other heralds.  Hi out there!

And we have to remember the final choices are always those of the Prince and
Princess and our duty to help them find things they like and we can get
passed, nice if the worked both ways though.

Yours heraldically,

Theocharista Red Flame









  -----Original Message-----
  From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org]On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
  Sent: May 31, 2007 10:05 PM
  To: 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
  Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!


  I, for one, wouldn't mind recognizing the double duty of the award name.
Theocharista, what are the Etoile names we've been working on?

  - QSY



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

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From damozel at shaw.ca  Fri Jun  1 14:36:10 2007
From: damozel at shaw.ca (Laura Offley)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:36:10 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!
In-Reply-To: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
References: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <4660914A.3080308@shaw.ca>

Just a note to this - please be aware that our Prince and Princess are 
taking the next 2 weeks to prepare for Their wedding on June 16. If you 
don't receive a response from Them right away, this is why.

I'm trying to clear Their plate a little so They can concentrate on 
things non-SCA. It doesn't mean that you won't hear from them, but Her 
Highness is still working in Prince George and comes to Vancouver on 
weekends to deal with the wedding.

Yolande (Head-of-Retinue)

Rosemary Underhill wrote:
> Hi Silver Yale, and my other fellow heralds of Tir Righ 
>  
> Not sure of the answer to this one, as I haven't heard back from the 
> last set we sent to their Highnesses.  I had hoped you might have been 
> given some feedback on these at  Investiture.   However below is 
> what I copied to  Her Highness Caoimhinn from the e-mail I sent to you 
> on badge repatriation.  And to my knowledge, no decisions have been 
> made on these.
>  
> "The Alpine lily would conflict with the use of "their Alpine 
> Highnesses" in
> Summits. I have looked at Edelweiss, at on checking the O&A it would
> conflict checked with multi petaled flowers. The Kingdom of 
> Drachenwald has
> the "Order of the Edelweiss" so, we would have to have it modified if we
> want it. For example "The Order of the Ice Edelweiss" and suggested badge
> could be Azure within an orle an edelweiss argent slipped and leaved or.
>  
> The Lumiere du Nord. I can find no medieval example of an order that has a
> direction included in it. Also, I remember the problems we had when we
> wanted to have our Principality called "The North". Laurel Soverign of 
> Arms
> ruled it conflicted with the North of the American Civil War. Lumiere is
> perfectly plausible and we could, as I mentioned call it the Lumiere of
> TirRigh as there are many examples medievally to support this type of 
> name.
> We could try to define it with a colour such as the Lumiere Or then all we
> would have to do is define what the lumiere is, a candle? a torch? etc. I
> also suggest the "Order of the Light Bearer" which can be documented 
> by the
> "The Sword Bearers" Livonia, 1201CE.
>  
> The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.
> I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn
> who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."
>  
> I like the idea of creating a name for the award that would also match 
> a herald, but I don't know how far from the original award concepts 
> their Highness would want to move to create such serendipity.  At the 
> moment we have no awards that would coincide with a voice herald for 
> example and neither Lilies nor Lights can be easily worked into it.  
> Although with tongue in cheek, I suggest Lumiere for a Court Herald, 
> as it is what they need most to read scrolls in a dark court.  :)
>  
> There is also, the Glowing Ember, the Guardian and the Princesses 
> Talon of Favor didn't pass either ( as you will recall, they were the 
> next group to deal with after the above 3 had been sorted out)  and 
> they might have some room for adjustment as  well.  I will start 
> working on them, and I would love to have input from Tir Righ's 
> other heralds.  Hi out there! 
>  
> And we have to remember the final choices are always those of the 
> Prince and Princess and our duty to help them find things they like 
> and we can get passed, nice if the worked both ways though.
>  
> Yours heraldically,
>  
> Theocharista Red Flame
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     *From:* collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
>     [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org]*On Behalf Of
>     *Quentin Martel
>     *Sent:* May 31, 2007 10:05 PM
>     *To:* 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
>     *Subject:* Re: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!
>
>     I, for one, wouldn't mind recognizing the double duty of the award
>     name. Theocharista, what are the Etoile names we've been working on?
>      
>     - QSY
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007 11:22 AM
>   


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From mhood at shaw.ca  Fri Jun  1 18:42:13 2007
From: mhood at shaw.ca (mark hood)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:42:13 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium
In-Reply-To: <auto-000156906939@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <465DF286.7030506@shaw.ca>
	<auto-000156906939@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c7a4b7$3e561db0$bb025910$@ca>

Well... if nobody else is thinking about it... and it's far enough away I
can dig up my ol' notes... I could do "Don't Panic; It's Only Court".

Ullm 

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:50 PM
To: 'Laura Offley'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium

 
"Ooops - did I just offer to teach???????"

Yes. :)

- QSY

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Laura Offley
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 2:54 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium

A topic near and dear to my heart that doesn't always get taught is
precedence and protocol.

Just *how* do you organize the processional at Invocation of Coronet Lists?
How does one go about organizing the order of toasts at a banquet? And what
do I say to introduce my best friend to the King? Did you know that all of
this can be found online? (just ask me if you want to know)

Ooops - did I just offer to teach???????

Yolande

Rosemary Underhill wrote:
> Hello All:
>
> As you may know, Tir Righ is planning its first Heraldic Symposium for 
> next February.  I know its a little early, but I would like to know 
> what classes or subjects the heralds of Tir Righ would like to see 
> included?  What classes do you think we need most to help our newer
heralds?
>
> Your input will help to make this a good  symposium and I really look 
> forward to hearing from you.
>
> Thanks heaps,
>
> Theocharista Red Flame,
> Consulting Herald, Tir Righ
> Symposium autocrat.
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.3/824 - Release Date: 
> 29/05/2007
> 1:01 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>
>
>   


_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.4/825 - Release Date: 5/30/2007
3:03 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.4/825 - Release Date: 5/30/2007
3:03 PM
 


_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org




From mhood at shaw.ca  Fri Jun  1 18:56:18 2007
From: mhood at shaw.ca (mark hood)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:56:18 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!
In-Reply-To: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
References: <auto-000155676639@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <019d01c7a4b9$36904cc0$a3b0e640$@ca>

Maybe it's because Caitrina and I have children the right age, but when I
see the name "Lumiere", I at once think of that candle guy from Disney's
"Beauty and the Beast".  Not that this is a *bad* thing; what was he, head
butler?

 

"My Lords and Ladies!  To the court of their Highnesses, the Prince and
Princess of Tir Righ; Be Our Guest!"

 

Uilliam.

Tongue FIRMLY in Cheek and it's Friday and I'm Off Work And Happy.

 

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

 

Hi Silver Yale, and my other fellow heralds of Tir Righ 

 

Not sure of the answer to this one, as I haven't heard back from the last
set we sent to their Highnesses.  I had hoped you might have been given some
feedback on these at  Investiture.   However below is what I copied to  Her
Highness Caoimhinn from the e-mail I sent to you on badge repatriation.  And
to my knowledge, no decisions have been made on these.

 

"The Alpine lily would conflict with the use of "their Alpine Highnesses" in

Summits. I have looked at Edelweiss, at on checking the O&A it would

conflict checked with multi petaled flowers. The Kingdom of Drachenwald has

the "Order of the Edelweiss" so, we would have to have it modified if we

want it. For example "The Order of the Ice Edelweiss" and suggested badge

could be Azure within an orle an edelweiss argent slipped and leaved or.

 

The Lumiere du Nord. I can find no medieval example of an order that has a

direction included in it. Also, I remember the problems we had when we

wanted to have our Principality called "The North". Laurel Soverign of Arms

ruled it conflicted with the North of the American Civil War. Lumiere is

perfectly plausible and we could, as I mentioned call it the Lumiere of

TirRigh as there are many examples medievally to support this type of name.

We could try to define it with a colour such as the Lumiere Or then all we

would have to do is define what the lumiere is, a candle? a torch? etc. I

also suggest the "Order of the Light Bearer" which can be documented by the

"The Sword Bearers" Livonia, 1201CE.

 

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.

I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn

who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

 

I like the idea of creating a name for the award that would also match a
herald, but I don't know how far from the original award concepts their
Highness would want to move to create such serendipity.  At the moment we
have no awards that would coincide with a voice herald for example and
neither Lilies nor Lights can be easily worked into it.  Although with
tongue in cheek, I suggest Lumiere for a Court Herald, as it is what they
need most to read scrolls in a dark court.  :)

 

There is also, the Glowing Ember, the Guardian and the Princesses Talon of
Favor didn't pass either ( as you will recall, they were the next group to
deal with after the above 3 had been sorted out)  and they might have some
room for adjustment as  well.  I will start working on them, and I would
love to have input from Tir Righ's other heralds.  Hi out there!  

 

And we have to remember the final choices are always those of the Prince and
Princess and our duty to help them find things they like and we can get
passed, nice if the worked both ways though.

 

Yours heraldically, 

 

Theocharista Red Flame

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org]On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: May 31, 2007 10:05 PM
To: 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

I, for one, wouldn't mind recognizing the double duty of the award name.
Theocharista, what are the Etoile names we've been working on?

 

- QSY

 


  _____  


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From mhood at shaw.ca  Fri Jun  1 19:10:32 2007
From: mhood at shaw.ca (mark hood)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:10:32 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!
In-Reply-To: <4660914A.3080308@shaw.ca>
References: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
	<4660914A.3080308@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <01a801c7a4bb$3372a720$9a57f560$@ca>

Huzzah!  Wow.. I didn't realize this one!

 

We should do something-or-other.

 

Ullm

 

 

From: Laura Offley [mailto:damozel at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 2:36 PM
To: Rosemary Underhill
Cc: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

 

Just a note to this - please be aware that our Prince and Princess are
taking the next 2 weeks to prepare for Their wedding on June 16. If you
don't receive a response from Them right away, this is why.

I'm trying to clear Their plate a little so They can concentrate on things
non-SCA. It doesn't mean that you won't hear from them, but Her Highness is
still working in Prince George and comes to Vancouver on weekends to deal
with the wedding.

Yolande (Head-of-Retinue)

Rosemary Underhill wrote: 

Hi Silver Yale, and my other fellow heralds of Tir Righ 

 

Not sure of the answer to this one, as I haven't heard back from the last
set we sent to their Highnesses.  I had hoped you might have been given some
feedback on these at  Investiture.   However below is what I copied to  Her
Highness Caoimhinn from the e-mail I sent to you on badge repatriation.  And
to my knowledge, no decisions have been made on these.

 

"The Alpine lily would conflict with the use of "their Alpine Highnesses" in

Summits. I have looked at Edelweiss, at on checking the O&A it would

conflict checked with multi petaled flowers. The Kingdom of Drachenwald has

the "Order of the Edelweiss" so, we would have to have it modified if we

want it. For example "The Order of the Ice Edelweiss" and suggested badge

could be Azure within an orle an edelweiss argent slipped and leaved or.

 

The Lumiere du Nord. I can find no medieval example of an order that has a

direction included in it. Also, I remember the problems we had when we

wanted to have our Principality called "The North". Laurel Soverign of Arms

ruled it conflicted with the North of the American Civil War. Lumiere is

perfectly plausible and we could, as I mentioned call it the Lumiere of

TirRigh as there are many examples medievally to support this type of name.

We could try to define it with a colour such as the Lumiere Or then all we

would have to do is define what the lumiere is, a candle? a torch? etc. I

also suggest the "Order of the Light Bearer" which can be documented by the

"The Sword Bearers" Livonia, 1201CE.

 

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.

I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn

who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

 

I like the idea of creating a name for the award that would also match a
herald, but I don't know how far from the original award concepts their
Highness would want to move to create such serendipity.  At the moment we
have no awards that would coincide with a voice herald for example and
neither Lilies nor Lights can be easily worked into it.  Although with
tongue in cheek, I suggest Lumiere for a Court Herald, as it is what they
need most to read scrolls in a dark court.  :)

 

There is also, the Glowing Ember, the Guardian and the Princesses Talon of
Favor didn't pass either ( as you will recall, they were the next group to
deal with after the above 3 had been sorted out)  and they might have some
room for adjustment as  well.  I will start working on them, and I would
love to have input from Tir Righ's other heralds.  Hi out there!  

 

And we have to remember the final choices are always those of the Prince and
Princess and our duty to help them find things they like and we can get
passed, nice if the worked both ways though.

 

Yours heraldically, 

 

Theocharista Red Flame

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org]On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: May 31, 2007 10:05 PM
To: 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

I, for one, wouldn't mind recognizing the double duty of the award name.
Theocharista, what are the Etoile names we've been working on?

 

- QSY

 


  _____  


 



  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
  
 



  _____  



 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM
  

 

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sat Jun  2 09:25:14 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:25:14 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium
In-Reply-To: <d3c2a30e7bd8.465fe50e@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <auto-000157763099@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>


Thank you!

The date we're shooting for is February 21st, 2008. 

- QSY

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Hart [mailto:cmhart at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 9:21 AM
To: Quentin Martel
Cc: 'Rosemary Underhill'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium

Pencil me in for teaching Voice Projection. I will need to know date and
location so I can make sure that the date is clear and that (B) I can do my
utmost best to keep it clear!
Colin.

----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Martel <quentin at shittimwoode.org>
Date: Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:49 pm
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium

> 
> Thank you for autocratting this event, Theocharista!
> 
> Sign me up for teaching a class on the OP and on serving as retinue 
> herald.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> - Quentin Silver Yale
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
> [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Rosemary 
> Underhill
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:39 PM
> To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium
> 
> 
> Hello All:
> 
> As you may know, Tir Righ is planning its first Heraldic Symposium for 
> next February.  I know its a little early, but I would like to know 
> what classes or subjects the heralds of Tir Righ would like to see 
> included?  What classes do you think we need most to help our newer 
> heralds?
> 
> Your input will help to make this a good  symposium and I really look 
> forward to hearing from you.
> 
> Thanks heaps,
> 
> Theocharista Red Flame,
> Consulting Herald, Tir Righ
> Symposium autocrat.
> 
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> 29/05/20071:01 PM
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
> 
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
> 

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From cocinera at shaw.ca  Sat Jun  2 15:15:33 2007
From: cocinera at shaw.ca (Rosemary Underhill)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:15:33 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium
In-Reply-To: <auto-000156906786@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFKEOPDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>

Thanks, Quentin, you're officially on the list now.

Theocharista Red Flame

-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Martel [mailto:quentin at shittimwoode.org]
Sent: May 31, 2007 9:50 PM
To: 'Rosemary Underhill'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium



Thank you for autocratting this event, Theocharista!

Sign me up for teaching a class on the OP and on serving as retinue herald.

Thanks!

- Quentin Silver Yale

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Rosemary
Underhill
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:39 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium


Hello All:

As you may know, Tir Righ is planning its first Heraldic Symposium for next
February.  I know its a little early, but I would like to know what classes
or subjects the heralds of Tir Righ would like to see included?  What
classes do you think we need most to help our newer heralds?

Your input will help to make this a good  symposium and I really look
forward to hearing from you.

Thanks heaps,

Theocharista Red Flame,
Consulting Herald, Tir Righ
Symposium autocrat.

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sat Jun  2 21:12:30 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 21:12:30 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium
In-Reply-To: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFKEOPDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <auto-000157967332@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>


Yay!

- QSY 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 3:16 PM
To: Quentin Martel; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium

Thanks, Quentin, you're officially on the list now.

Theocharista Red Flame

-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Martel [mailto:quentin at shittimwoode.org]
Sent: May 31, 2007 9:50 PM
To: 'Rosemary Underhill'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium



Thank you for autocratting this event, Theocharista!

Sign me up for teaching a class on the OP and on serving as retinue herald.

Thanks!

- Quentin Silver Yale

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Rosemary
Underhill
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:39 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] A Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium


Hello All:

As you may know, Tir Righ is planning its first Heraldic Symposium for next
February.  I know its a little early, but I would like to know what classes
or subjects the heralds of Tir Righ would like to see included?  What
classes do you think we need most to help our newer heralds?

Your input will help to make this a good  symposium and I really look
forward to hearing from you.

Thanks heaps,

Theocharista Red Flame,
Consulting Herald, Tir Righ
Symposium autocrat.

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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1:01 PM


_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sat Jun  2 21:24:57 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 21:24:57 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>

We have several award names to get passed so in order to spur conversation
on these, I'm breaking them up into individual threads. This one is on the
Lily.
 
The story so far:
 
We have an award for the consort of the second place finisher in the Tir
Righ coronet lists. It's currently called the Lily. This clearly conflicts
with every other Lily in the knowne world, so we'd like to find an
alternative.
 
Issues: Keeping the "Lily" part is desireable as there is strong precent in
An Tir for what a given Lily means. Plus we've been using that name for
awhile and small changes are more desireable than large ones.
 
Attempts: Basically, we're looking for a ducmentable modifier for Lily that
fits with the Tir Righ theme. Mountain Lily, Alpine Lily, and Edelweiss (a
montain lily) were looked at, but the favority - Alpine Lily - ran smack
into the fact that the Summits uses the Alpine theme heavily. Edelweiss
would need some manuvering around Drachenwalkd conflict, but sacrifices the
lily word.
 
So what do we shoot for? Mountain Lily?
 
Please comment!
 
- Quentin Silver Yale


   _____  

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!


"The Alpine lily would conflict with the use of "their Alpine Highnesses" in
Summits. I have looked at Edelweiss, at on checking the O&A it would
conflict checked with multi petaled flowers. The Kingdom of Drachenwald has
the "Order of the Edelweiss" so, we would have to have it modified if we
want it. For example "The Order of the Ice Edelweiss" and suggested badge
could be Azure within an orle an edelweiss argent slipped and leaved or.
 
 

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sat Jun  2 21:28:21 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 21:28:21 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <auto-000156685638@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>

This is another in the series of award name conversations. This time - the
Etoile d'Argent.
 
This award conflicts directly with the Silver Star of Trimaris. Differnt
language, but the exact same meaning means no dice on passing it. We don't
want to conflict with another branch's award at all, but to conflict with a
Kingdom award is really bad.
 
Our last discussions on this had a strong desire for a french theme and
Lumiere du Nord was the favorite. But as we see below, it fails the
documentation test.
 
So what other options are there?
 
Please discuss!
 
- Quentin Silver Yale

   _____  

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!


The Lumiere du Nord. I can find no medieval example of an order that has a
direction included in it. Also, I remember the problems we had when we
wanted to have our Principality called "The North". Laurel Soverign of Arms
ruled it conflicted with the North of the American Civil War. Lumiere is
perfectly plausible and we could, as I mentioned call it the Lumiere of
TirRigh as there are many examples medievally to support this type of name.
We could try to define it with a colour such as the Lumiere Or then all we
would have to do is define what the lumiere is, a candle? a torch? etc. I
also suggest the "Order of the Light Bearer" which can be documented by the
"The Sword Bearers" Livonia, 1201CE.
 
 

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sat Jun  2 21:31:53 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 21:31:53 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <auto-000157971129@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>

Another thread for discussion a particular award name to pass.
 
Lightning Spear. This is to rename the Shattered Spear. The issue there is
there's no medieval precedent for a broken weapon to be an actual award.
Rather it was something you tried to avoid. I believe that the Old Shattered
Shield is passed through being passed when we accepted all sorts of
interesting things as valid documentation.
 
I like Lightning Spear! It's a spear, it fits the Tir Righ motif. The
holders of it can and should be proud of it.
 
Please discuss!
 
- Quentin Silver Yale

   _____  

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!


 
The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.
I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn
who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."
 
 

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sat Jun  2 21:48:31 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 21:48:31 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!
In-Reply-To: <019d01c7a4b9$36904cc0$a3b0e640$@ca>
Message-ID: <auto-000114052854@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>

Laugh!
 
You should see my yellow garb. Padruig nailed me with that epithet
immediately!
 
- QSY

   _____  

From: mark hood [mailto:mhood at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 6:56 PM
To: 'Rosemary Underhill'; 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!



Maybe it?s because Caitrina and I have children the right age, but when I
see the name ?Lumiere?, I at once think of that candle guy from Disney?s
?Beauty and the Beast?.  Not that this is a *bad* thing; what was he, head
butler?

 

?My Lords and Ladies!  To the court of their Highnesses, the Prince and
Princess of Tir Righ; Be Our Guest!?

 

Uilliam.

Tongue FIRMLY in Cheek and it?s Friday and I?m Off Work And Happy.

 

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

 

Hi Silver Yale, and my other fellow heralds of Tir Righ 

 

Not sure of the answer to this one, as I haven't heard back from the last
set we sent to their Highnesses.  I had hoped you might have been given some
feedback on these at  Investiture.   However below is what I copied to  Her
Highness Caoimhinn from the e-mail I sent to you on badge repatriation.  And
to my knowledge, no decisions have been made on these.

 

"The Alpine lily would conflict with the use of "their Alpine Highnesses" in

Summits. I have looked at Edelweiss, at on checking the O&A it would

conflict checked with multi petaled flowers. The Kingdom of Drachenwald has

the "Order of the Edelweiss" so, we would have to have it modified if we

want it. For example "The Order of the Ice Edelweiss" and suggested badge

could be Azure within an orle an edelweiss argent slipped and leaved or.

 

The Lumiere du Nord. I can find no medieval example of an order that has a

direction included in it. Also, I remember the problems we had when we

wanted to have our Principality called "The North". Laurel Soverign of Arms

ruled it conflicted with the North of the American Civil War. Lumiere is

perfectly plausible and we could, as I mentioned call it the Lumiere of

TirRigh as there are many examples medievally to support this type of name.

We could try to define it with a colour such as the Lumiere Or then all we

would have to do is define what the lumiere is, a candle? a torch? etc. I

also suggest the "Order of the Light Bearer" which can be documented by the

"The Sword Bearers" Livonia, 1201CE.

 

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.

I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn

who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

 

I like the idea of creating a name for the award that would also match a
herald, but I don't know how far from the original award concepts their
Highness would want to move to create such serendipity.  At the moment we
have no awards that would coincide with a voice herald for example and
neither Lilies nor Lights can be easily worked into it.  Although with
tongue in cheek, I suggest Lumiere for a Court Herald, as it is what they
need most to read scrolls in a dark court.  :)

 

There is also, the Glowing Ember, the Guardian and the Princesses Talon of
Favor didn't pass either ( as you will recall, they were the next group to
deal with after the above 3 had been sorted out)  and they might have some
room for adjustment as  well.  I will start working on them, and I would
love to have input from Tir Righ's other heralds.  Hi out there!  

 

And we have to remember the final choices are always those of the Prince and
Princess and our duty to help them find things they like and we can get
passed, nice if the worked both ways though.

 

Yours heraldically, 

 

Theocharista Red Flame

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org]On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: May 31, 2007 10:05 PM
To: 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

I, for one, wouldn't mind recognizing the double duty of the award name.
Theocharista, what are the Etoile names we've been working on?

 

- QSY

 


   _____  



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From Caitrina at shaw.ca  Sat Jun  2 22:17:58 2007
From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina Sable Loat)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 22:17:58 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <auto-000157971129@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
	<auto-000157971129@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <001201c7a59e$8c948d30$a5bda790$@ca>

I'm not sure if Lightning Spear would follow acceptable order naming
practices.  To me Lightning is a "thing" and I can find no instance showing
this would be acceptable.  It would be Lightning + Spear so Thing + Thing.
Although infrequent, it should be acceptable to name it Lightning & Spear
but that kind of takes away from the idea.  I'll keep looking and if anyone
thinks Lightning is not a thing let me know.

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 9:32 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

Another thread for discussion a particular award name to pass.

 

Lightning Spear. This is to rename the Shattered Spear. The issue there is
there's no medieval precedent for a broken weapon to be an actual award.
Rather it was something you tried to avoid. I believe that the Old Shattered
Shield is passed through being passed when we accepted all sorts of
interesting things as valid documentation.

 

I like Lightning Spear! It's a spear, it fits the Tir Righ motif. The
holders of it can and should be proud of it.

 

Please discuss!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

  _____  

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

 

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.

I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn

who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

 

 

 

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From Caitrina at shaw.ca  Sat Jun  2 22:35:54 2007
From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina Sable Loat)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 22:35:54 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <001201c7a59e$8c948d30$a5bda790$@ca>
References: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
	<auto-000157971129@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<001201c7a59e$8c948d30$a5bda790$@ca>
Message-ID: <002c01c7a5a1$0df1da20$29d58e60$@ca>

My lord Uilliam is suggesting the Stone Spear with Stone being an adjective.
(Stone, mountains. you get the gist).  Adjective + Thing does follow
frequently used patterns in accordance with the Project Ordensnamen.
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ 

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Caitrina Sable
Loat
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:18 PM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

I'm not sure if Lightning Spear would follow acceptable order naming
practices.  To me Lightning is a "thing" and I can find no instance showing
this would be acceptable.  It would be Lightning + Spear so Thing + Thing.
Although infrequent, it should be acceptable to name it Lightning & Spear
but that kind of takes away from the idea.  I'll keep looking and if anyone
thinks Lightning is not a thing let me know.

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 9:32 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

Another thread for discussion a particular award name to pass.

 

Lightning Spear. This is to rename the Shattered Spear. The issue there is
there's no medieval precedent for a broken weapon to be an actual award.
Rather it was something you tried to avoid. I believe that the Old Shattered
Shield is passed through being passed when we accepted all sorts of
interesting things as valid documentation.

 

I like Lightning Spear! It's a spear, it fits the Tir Righ motif. The
holders of it can and should be proud of it.

 

Please discuss!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

  _____  

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

 

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.

I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn

who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

 

 

 

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sat Jun  2 23:24:47 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:24:47 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <002c01c7a5a1$0df1da20$29d58e60$@ca>
Message-ID: <auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>

Great points!
 
According to HYPERLINK
"http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lightning"http://dictionary.referenc
e.com/browse/lightning, lightning can be used as a noun, verb, or adjective.
In it's adjective case, we fit perfectly into the Adjective + Thing pattern
listed at HYPERLINK
"http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/"http://www.sca.org/heraldry
/laurel/names/order/ (Adjective + Thing - Holy Phial, Precious Blood,
Pontifical Medal).
 
Would that work?
 
- QSY

   _____  

From: Caitrina Sable Loat [mailto:Caitrina at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:36 PM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion



My lord Uilliam is suggesting the Stone Spear with Stone being an adjective.
(Stone, mountains? you get the gist).  Adjective + Thing does follow
frequently used patterns in accordance with the Project Ordensnamen.
HYPERLINK
"http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/"http://www.sca.org/heraldry
/laurel/names/order/ 

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Caitrina Sable
Loat
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:18 PM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

I?m not sure if Lightning Spear would follow acceptable order naming
practices.  To me Lightning is a ?thing? and I can find no instance showing
this would be acceptable.  It would be Lightning + Spear so Thing + Thing.
Although infrequent, it should be acceptable to name it Lightning & Spear
but that kind of takes away from the idea.  I?ll keep looking and if anyone
thinks Lightning is not a thing let me know.

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 9:32 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

Another thread for discussion a particular award name to pass.

 

Lightning Spear. This is to rename the Shattered Spear. The issue there is
there's no medieval precedent for a broken weapon to be an actual award.
Rather it was something you tried to avoid. I believe that the Old Shattered
Shield is passed through being passed when we accepted all sorts of
interesting things as valid documentation.

 

I like Lightning Spear! It's a spear, it fits the Tir Righ motif. The
holders of it can and should be proud of it.

 

Please discuss!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

   _____  

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

 

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.

I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn

who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

 

 

 

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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11:22 AM


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From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 23:41:23 2007
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Britt)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:41:23 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <auto-000156685638@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
	<auto-000156685638@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com>

> This is another in the series of award name conversations. This time - the
> Etoile d'Argent.
>
> This award conflicts directly with the Silver Star of Trimaris. Differnt
> language, but the exact same meaning means no dice on passing it. We don't
> want to conflict with another branch's award at all, but to conflict with a
> Kingdom award is really bad.

Umm, I think that's incorrect, Quentin.  I just ploughed through name
precedents and the RfS and didn't find proof, but I'm remembering
distinctly seeing proof that conflict by translation doesn't exist in
non-personal names.  The RfS have 'sound' and 'appearance' as their
primary criteria, not meaning.  I'll do some further digging but I
suspect your wholly French name is just fine.  I'll get back to you on
this.

(And I know people in Trimaris - permission to conflict is an option
if necessary.)

- Teceangl



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 23:53:31 2007
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Britt)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:53:31 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <002c01c7a5a1$0df1da20$29d58e60$@ca>
	<auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <232740310706022353t2f064ce1hc893af6d318ad214@mail.gmail.com>

> Great points!
>
> According to
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lightning, lightning
> can be used as a noun, verb, or adjective. In it's adjective case, we fit
> perfectly into the Adjective + Thing pattern listed at
> http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ (Adjective
> + Thing - Holy Phial, Precious Blood, Pontifical Medal).
>
> Would that work?

Maybe not.

     [Award of the Rising Star] This name is being returned for lack
of documentation of the
     construction of the order name. No documentation was provided,
and the College found
     none, that an abstract descriptive such as Rising was used to
modify a noun such as Star
     in period order names. Barring such documentation, this name must
be returned.
     [Ansteorra, Kingdom of, 09/01, R-Ansteorra]

- Teceangl



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 23:59:23 2007
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Britt)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 23:59:23 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFGEOBDLAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
	<auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <232740310706022359j78227abcscfc10ef7909d6251@mail.gmail.com>

> We have an award for the consort of the second place finisher in the Tir
> Righ coronet lists. It's currently called the Lily. This clearly conflicts
> with every other Lily in the knowne world, so we'd like to find an
> alternative.

No, just one.  The Calon Lily, registered to Calontir.  Every other
Lily has a designator attached to it.  So Calontir could be approached
for permission to conflict with the addition of 'Tir Righ' to the
name.

There's no conflict with the Summits.  They haven't registered Alpine
anything.  The potential issue would perhaps be one of identity.

White Lily is also clear.

- Teceangl



From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sun Jun  3 00:13:56 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 00:13:56 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>

 
Great! Please report back with what you find out on that!

- QSY

-----Original Message-----
From: Britt [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:41 PM
To: Quentin Martel
Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming

> This is another in the series of award name conversations. This time - 
> the Etoile d'Argent.
>
> This award conflicts directly with the Silver Star of Trimaris. 
> Differnt language, but the exact same meaning means no dice on passing 
> it. We don't want to conflict with another branch's award at all, but 
> to conflict with a Kingdom award is really bad.

Umm, I think that's incorrect, Quentin.  I just ploughed through name
precedents and the RfS and didn't find proof, but I'm remembering distinctly
seeing proof that conflict by translation doesn't exist in non-personal
names.  The RfS have 'sound' and 'appearance' as their primary criteria, not
meaning.  I'll do some further digging but I suspect your wholly French name
is just fine.  I'll get back to you on this.

(And I know people in Trimaris - permission to conflict is an option if
necessary.)

- Teceangl

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM
 

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Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
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From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 00:15:47 2007
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Britt)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 00:15:47 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/3/07, Quentin Martel <quentin at shittimwoode.org> wrote:
>
> Great! Please report back with what you find out on that!

I am at the service of Tir Righ, and appreciative that you're letting
me help.  I shall return information as I receive it.

- Teceangl



From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sun Jun  3 00:18:27 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 00:18:27 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <232740310706022359j78227abcscfc10ef7909d6251@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000158006908@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>

 
Identity is certainly the issue with Alpine. The Summits' ceremonies are
rife with references to it and their Coronet is referred to as Their Alpine
Highnesses.

- QSY


-----Original Message-----
From: Britt [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:59 PM
To: Quentin Martel
Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion

> We have an award for the consort of the second place finisher in the 
> Tir Righ coronet lists. It's currently called the Lily. This clearly 
> conflicts with every other Lily in the knowne world, so we'd like to 
> find an alternative.

No, just one.  The Calon Lily, registered to Calontir.  Every other Lily has
a designator attached to it.  So Calontir could be approached for permission
to conflict with the addition of 'Tir Righ' to the name.

There's no conflict with the Summits.  They haven't registered Alpine
anything.  The potential issue would perhaps be one of identity.

White Lily is also clear.

- Teceangl

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM
 

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sun Jun  3 00:59:57 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 00:59:57 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000158017567@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>

 
You're very welcome! And I'm very glad to hear it! We're a much better
college for it.

- Quentin Silver Yale

-----Original Message-----
From: Britt [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:16 AM
To: Quentin Martel
Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming

On 6/3/07, Quentin Martel <quentin at shittimwoode.org> wrote:
>
> Great! Please report back with what you find out on that!

I am at the service of Tir Righ, and appreciative that you're letting me
help.  I shall return information as I receive it.

- Teceangl

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM
 




From uilliam at shaw.ca  Sun Jun  3 09:13:35 2007
From: uilliam at shaw.ca (=?windows-1250?Q?Uilliam_mac_Ail=E9ne_mhic_Seamuis?=)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 09:13:35 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <4662E8AF.4020007@shaw.ca>

Quentin Martel wrote:

> We have an award for the consort of the second place finisher in the Tir 
> Righ coronet lists. It's currently called the Lily. This clearly 
> conflicts with every other Lily in the knowne world, so we'd like to 
> find an alternative.
>  
> Issues: Keeping the "Lily" part is desireable as there is strong precent 
> in An Tir for what a given Lily means. Plus we've been using that name 
> for awhile and small changes are more desireable than large ones.
>  
> Attempts: Basically, we're looking for a ducmentable modifier for Lily 
> that fits with the Tir Righ theme. Mountain Lily, Alpine Lily, and 
> Edelweiss (a montain lily) were looked at, but the favority - Alpine 
> Lily - ran smack into the fact that the Summits uses the Alpine theme 
> heavily. Edelweiss would need some manuvering around Drachenwalkd 
> conflict, but sacrifices the lily word.

Suggestions:

Arctic Lily
Boreal Lily (Borealilyalis?)
Septentrian Lily
Astral Lily
Celestial Lily
Frozen Lily
Frost Lily
Northern Lily

Yours aye,
Uilliam
the as-yet-unnamed herald - workin' on it, really...

-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/



From uilliam at shaw.ca  Sun Jun  3 09:18:52 2007
From: uilliam at shaw.ca (=?windows-1250?Q?Uilliam_mac_Ail=E9ne_mhic_Seamuis?=)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 09:18:52 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <4662E9EC.3080106@shaw.ca>

Quentin Martel wrote:
> We have several award names to get passed so in order to spur 
> conversation on these, I'm breaking them up into individual threads. 
> This one is on the Lily.
>  
> The story so far:
>  
> We have an award for the consort of the second place finisher in the Tir 
> Righ coronet lists. It's currently called the Lily. This clearly 
> conflicts with every other Lily in the knowne world, so we'd like to 
> find an alternative.
>  
> Issues: Keeping the "Lily" part is desireable as there is strong precent 
> in An Tir for what a given Lily means. Plus we've been using that name 
> for awhile and small changes are more desireable than large ones.
>  
> Attempts: Basically, we're looking for a ducmentable modifier for Lily 
> that fits with the Tir Righ theme. Mountain Lily, Alpine Lily, and 
> Edelweiss (a montain lily) were looked at, but the favority - Alpine 
> Lily - ran smack into the fact that the Summits uses the Alpine theme 
> heavily. Edelweiss would need some manuvering around Drachenwalkd 
> conflict, but sacrifices the lily word.

And 'duh' - the obvious ones:

Storm Lily
Tempest Lily

to tie into the Storm Thrones.

Uilliam
who really should have gotten more sleep last night, but Anaheim was 
losing to Ottawa...

-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/



From Caitrina at shaw.ca  Sun Jun  3 09:39:04 2007
From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina Sable Loat)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 09:39:04 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <002c01c7a5a1$0df1da20$29d58e60$@ca>
	<auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <000001c7a5fd$b3574b60$1a05e220$@ca>

I'm not 100% sure.  We would definitely have to ensure the dictionary
reference is included in our documentation.  But it's worth a shot right?
Or is that bolt?  Lightning.. Bolt.. Sorry, it's early for me.

 

Caitrina

 

From: Quentin Martel [mailto:quentin at shittimwoode.org] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:25 PM
To: 'Caitrina Sable Loat'; 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

Great points!

 

According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lightning, lightning can
be used as a noun, verb, or adjective. In it's adjective case, we fit
perfectly into the Adjective + Thing pattern listed at
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ (Adjective + Thing - Holy
Phial, Precious Blood, Pontifical Medal).

 

Would that work?

 

- QSY

 

  _____  

From: Caitrina Sable Loat [mailto:Caitrina at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:36 PM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

My lord Uilliam is suggesting the Stone Spear with Stone being an adjective.
(Stone, mountains. you get the gist).  Adjective + Thing does follow
frequently used patterns in accordance with the Project Ordensnamen.
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ 

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Caitrina Sable
Loat
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:18 PM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

I'm not sure if Lightning Spear would follow acceptable order naming
practices.  To me Lightning is a "thing" and I can find no instance showing
this would be acceptable.  It would be Lightning + Spear so Thing + Thing.
Although infrequent, it should be acceptable to name it Lightning & Spear
but that kind of takes away from the idea.  I'll keep looking and if anyone
thinks Lightning is not a thing let me know.

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 9:32 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

Another thread for discussion a particular award name to pass.

 

Lightning Spear. This is to rename the Shattered Spear. The issue there is
there's no medieval precedent for a broken weapon to be an actual award.
Rather it was something you tried to avoid. I believe that the Old Shattered
Shield is passed through being passed when we accepted all sorts of
interesting things as valid documentation.

 

I like Lightning Spear! It's a spear, it fits the Tir Righ motif. The
holders of it can and should be proud of it.

 

Please discuss!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

  _____  

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

 

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.

I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn

who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

 

 

 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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From Caitrina at shaw.ca  Sun Jun  3 09:48:03 2007
From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina Sable Loat)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 09:48:03 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <232740310706022353t2f064ce1hc893af6d318ad214@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002c01c7a5a1$0df1da20$29d58e60$@ca>
	<auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<232740310706022353t2f064ce1hc893af6d318ad214@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c7a5fe$f41b6220$dc522660$@ca>

Opps, I should have read all my email before replying the first time.  We
need documentation showing Lightning being used in period as an adjective.
Our Webster's  Collegiate Dictionary shows Lightning used as an adjective in
1640 - "having or moving with or as if with the speed and suddenness of
lightning".  Anyone else got anything?

Caitrina

-----Original Message-----
From: Britt [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:54 PM
To: Quentin Martel
Cc: Caitrina Sable Loat; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

> Great points!
>
> According to
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lightning, lightning
> can be used as a noun, verb, or adjective. In it's adjective case, we fit
> perfectly into the Adjective + Thing pattern listed at
> http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ (Adjective
> + Thing - Holy Phial, Precious Blood, Pontifical Medal).
>
> Would that work?

Maybe not.

     [Award of the Rising Star] This name is being returned for lack
of documentation of the
     construction of the order name. No documentation was provided,
and the College found
     none, that an abstract descriptive such as Rising was used to
modify a noun such as Star
     in period order names. Barring such documentation, this name must
be returned.
     [Ansteorra, Kingdom of, 09/01, R-Ansteorra]

- Teceangl




From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 09:55:30 2007
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Britt)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 09:55:30 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <000501c7a5fe$f41b6220$dc522660$@ca>
References: <002c01c7a5a1$0df1da20$29d58e60$@ca>
	<auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<232740310706022353t2f064ce1hc893af6d318ad214@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c7a5fe$f41b6220$dc522660$@ca>
Message-ID: <232740310706030955x68ddd385td625fdfae04cc7e3@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/3/07, Caitrina Sable Loat <Caitrina at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Opps, I should have read all my email before replying the first time.  We
> need documentation showing Lightning being used in period as an adjective.
> Our Webster's  Collegiate Dictionary shows Lightning used as an adjective in
> 1640 - "having or moving with or as if with the speed and suddenness of
> lightning".  Anyone else got anything?

You need to document it being used in exactly the same way AND that
period order names used that adjective.  So something 'moving like
lightning' won't cut it, but 'thy lightning sword did smite thine
enemies' would suffice for adjective legitimacy.  Though you'd still
need to document the pattern for order names, as well.  Note that the
Rising Star return didn't care whether rising star was a period
adjective-noun combination, it addressed that pattern as an order
name.

Does someone want to contact Lady Ursula for help on this, or shall I?
 She's good with order names.

- Teceangl



From anthony.hawke at shaw.ca  Sun Jun  3 10:01:34 2007
From: anthony.hawke at shaw.ca (HL Anthony Hawke - GdS)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:01:34 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <000501c7a5fe$f41b6220$dc522660$@ca>
References: <002c01c7a5a1$0df1da20$29d58e60$@ca>
	<auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<232740310706022353t2f064ce1hc893af6d318ad214@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c7a5fe$f41b6220$dc522660$@ca>
Message-ID: <f329f622667a.4662917e@shaw.ca>

*Iff* that fails, we may want to consider mythical/Heroic or deific figures that were known in period to throw spears.

Notables would be Achilles, Zeus, a (Roman) Legionaire, Odin (and the variant spellings thereof), etc. 
If we were to try to keep a vestige of the Olde Shattered Spear in there, we could select a hero who is killed on the battlefield, such as Patroclus (whose death inspired Achilles to win the day) or Hector, the Prince that was killed by Achilles to end the war.  (I see alot of symbolism in the last one)


-AH

----- Original Message -----
From: Caitrina Sable Loat <Caitrina at shaw.ca>
Date: Sunday, June 3, 2007 9:48 am
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

> Opps, I should have read all my email before replying the first 
> time.  We
> need documentation showing Lightning being used in period as an 
> adjective.Our Webster's  Collegiate Dictionary shows Lightning 
> used as an adjective in
> 1640 - "having or moving with or as if with the speed and 
> suddenness of
> lightning".  Anyone else got anything?
> 
> Caitrina
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Britt [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:54 PM
> To: Quentin Martel
> Cc: Caitrina Sable Loat; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
> 
> > Great points!
> >
> > According to
> > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lightning, lightning
> > can be used as a noun, verb, or adjective. In it's adjective 
> case, we fit
> > perfectly into the Adjective + Thing pattern listed at
> > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ (Adjective
> > + Thing - Holy Phial, Precious Blood, Pontifical Medal).
> >
> > Would that work?
> 
> Maybe not.
> 
>     [Award of the Rising Star] This name is being returned for lack
> of documentation of the
>     construction of the order name. No documentation was provided,
> and the College found
>     none, that an abstract descriptive such as Rising was used to
> modify a noun such as Star
>     in period order names. Barring such documentation, this name must
> be returned.
>     [Ansteorra, Kingdom of, 09/01, R-Ansteorra]
> 
> - Teceangl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
> 



From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sun Jun  3 12:34:07 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:34:07 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <000001c7a5fd$b3574b60$1a05e220$@ca>
Message-ID: <auto-000158238497@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>

Neither am I. This is far from my field of expertise in the heraldic
community. I'm thinking that Lightning is a more common modifier than
Rising, though, so it may work despite the precedent that Teceangl found.

 

- QSY

 

  _____  

From: Caitrina Sable Loat [mailto:Caitrina at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:39 AM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

I'm not 100% sure.  We would definitely have to ensure the dictionary
reference is included in our documentation.  But it's worth a shot right?
Or is that bolt?  Lightning.. Bolt.. Sorry, it's early for me.

 

Caitrina

 

From: Quentin Martel [mailto:quentin at shittimwoode.org] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:25 PM
To: 'Caitrina Sable Loat'; 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

Great points!

 

According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lightning, lightning can
be used as a noun, verb, or adjective. In it's adjective case, we fit
perfectly into the Adjective + Thing pattern listed at
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ (Adjective + Thing - Holy
Phial, Precious Blood, Pontifical Medal).

 

Would that work?

 

- QSY

 

  _____  

From: Caitrina Sable Loat [mailto:Caitrina at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:36 PM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

My lord Uilliam is suggesting the Stone Spear with Stone being an adjective.
(Stone, mountains. you get the gist).  Adjective + Thing does follow
frequently used patterns in accordance with the Project Ordensnamen.
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ 

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Caitrina Sable
Loat
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:18 PM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

I'm not sure if Lightning Spear would follow acceptable order naming
practices.  To me Lightning is a "thing" and I can find no instance showing
this would be acceptable.  It would be Lightning + Spear so Thing + Thing.
Although infrequent, it should be acceptable to name it Lightning & Spear
but that kind of takes away from the idea.  I'll keep looking and if anyone
thinks Lightning is not a thing let me know.

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 9:32 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

Another thread for discussion a particular award name to pass.

 

Lightning Spear. This is to rename the Shattered Spear. The issue there is
there's no medieval precedent for a broken weapon to be an actual award.
Rather it was something you tried to avoid. I believe that the Old Shattered
Shield is passed through being passed when we accepted all sorts of
interesting things as valid documentation.

 

I like Lightning Spear! It's a spear, it fits the Tir Righ motif. The
holders of it can and should be proud of it.

 

Please discuss!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

  _____  

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

 

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.

I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn

who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

 

 

 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM

 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sun Jun  3 12:36:08 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:36:08 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <232740310706030955x68ddd385td625fdfae04cc7e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000156951742@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>


Bringing in more help is always a good thing! Patrika Theocharista, have you
already consulted Lady Ursula?

- QSY

-----Original Message-----
From: Britt [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:56 AM
To: Caitrina Sable Loat
Cc: Quentin Martel; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

On 6/3/07, Caitrina Sable Loat <Caitrina at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Opps, I should have read all my email before replying the first time.  We
> need documentation showing Lightning being used in period as an adjective.
> Our Webster's  Collegiate Dictionary shows Lightning used as an adjective
in
> 1640 - "having or moving with or as if with the speed and suddenness of
> lightning".  Anyone else got anything?

You need to document it being used in exactly the same way AND that
period order names used that adjective.  So something 'moving like
lightning' won't cut it, but 'thy lightning sword did smite thine
enemies' would suffice for adjective legitimacy.  Though you'd still
need to document the pattern for order names, as well.  Note that the
Rising Star return didn't care whether rising star was a period
adjective-noun combination, it addressed that pattern as an order
name.

Does someone want to contact Lady Ursula for help on this, or shall I?
 She's good with order names.

- Teceangl




From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Sun Jun  3 12:37:39 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 12:37:39 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <f329f622667a.4662917e@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <auto-000158239648@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>


There is ample examples for Christian deities in awards names in period. Are
there such examples for other mythologies?

- QSY

-----Original Message-----
From: HL Anthony Hawke - GdS [mailto:anthony.hawke at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 10:02 AM
To: Caitrina Sable Loat
Cc: 'Britt'; 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

*Iff* that fails, we may want to consider mythical/Heroic or deific figures
that were known in period to throw spears.

Notables would be Achilles, Zeus, a (Roman) Legionaire, Odin (and the
variant spellings thereof), etc. 
If we were to try to keep a vestige of the Olde Shattered Spear in there, we
could select a hero who is killed on the battlefield, such as Patroclus
(whose death inspired Achilles to win the day) or Hector, the Prince that
was killed by Achilles to end the war.  (I see alot of symbolism in the last
one)


-AH

----- Original Message -----
From: Caitrina Sable Loat <Caitrina at shaw.ca>
Date: Sunday, June 3, 2007 9:48 am
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

> Opps, I should have read all my email before replying the first 
> time.  We
> need documentation showing Lightning being used in period as an 
> adjective.Our Webster's  Collegiate Dictionary shows Lightning 
> used as an adjective in
> 1640 - "having or moving with or as if with the speed and 
> suddenness of
> lightning".  Anyone else got anything?
> 
> Caitrina
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Britt [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:54 PM
> To: Quentin Martel
> Cc: Caitrina Sable Loat; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
> 
> > Great points!
> >
> > According to
> > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lightning, lightning
> > can be used as a noun, verb, or adjective. In it's adjective 
> case, we fit
> > perfectly into the Adjective + Thing pattern listed at
> > http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ (Adjective
> > + Thing - Holy Phial, Precious Blood, Pontifical Medal).
> >
> > Would that work?
> 
> Maybe not.
> 
>     [Award of the Rising Star] This name is being returned for lack
> of documentation of the
>     construction of the order name. No documentation was provided,
> and the College found
>     none, that an abstract descriptive such as Rising was used to
> modify a noun such as Star
>     in period order names. Barring such documentation, this name must
> be returned.
>     [Ansteorra, Kingdom of, 09/01, R-Ansteorra]
> 
> - Teceangl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
> 




From jharcus at prcn.org  Sun Jun  3 13:55:00 2007
From: jharcus at prcn.org (Judy Harcus)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:55:00 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <46632AA4.60207@prcn.org>

Mountain Lily appears to be taken.
"Mountain Lily, Order of the
This order name was registered to Ered Su^l, Barony of in March of 1998 
(via Atenveldt)."

Alicia

Quentin Martel wrote:

> We have several award names to get passed so in order to spur 
> conversation on these, I'm breaking them up into individual threads. 
> This one is on the Lily.
>  
> The story so far:
>  
> We have an award for the consort of the second place finisher in the 
> Tir Righ coronet lists. It's currently called the Lily. This clearly 
> conflicts with every other Lily in the knowne world, so we'd like to 
> find an alternative.
>  
> Issues: Keeping the "Lily" part is desireable as there is strong 
> precent in An Tir for what a given Lily means. Plus we've been using 
> that name for awhile and small changes are more desireable than large 
> ones.
>  
> Attempts: Basically, we're looking for a ducmentable modifier for Lily 
> that fits with the Tir Righ theme. Mountain Lily, Alpine Lily, and 
> Edelweiss (a montain lily) were looked at, but the favority - Alpine 
> Lily - ran smack into the fact that the Summits uses the Alpine theme 
> heavily. Edelweiss would need some manuvering around Drachenwalkd 
> conflict, but sacrifices the lily word.
>  
> So what do we shoot for? Mountain Lily?
>  
> Please comment!
>  
> - Quentin Silver Yale
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
> To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!
>
> "The Alpine lily would conflict with the use of "their Alpine 
> Highnesses" in
> Summits. I have looked at Edelweiss, at on checking the O&A it would
> conflict checked with multi petaled flowers. The Kingdom of 
> Drachenwald has
> the "Order of the Edelweiss" so, we would have to have it modified if we
> want it. For example "The Order of the Ice Edelweiss" and suggested badge
> could be Azure within an orle an edelweiss argent slipped and leaved or.
>  
>  
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 
> 6/1/2007 11:22 AM
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Collegeofheralds mailing list
>Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
>http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>  
>
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From jharcus at prcn.org  Sun Jun  3 14:07:44 2007
From: jharcus at prcn.org (Judy Harcus)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 14:07:44 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <4662E8AF.4020007@shaw.ca>
References: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<4662E8AF.4020007@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <46632DA0.2050709@prcn.org>

I took a look at a book on BC Plants to see what 'real' lily names might 
work.
- Alp Lily (Lloydia serotina) - perhaps too close to Alpine
- White Fawn Lily ( Erythronium oregonum)
- Yellow Glacier Lily (Erythronium grandiflorum) - maybe ignore the 
color and use 'Glacier Lily'?

Alicia

Uilliam mac Ail?ne mhic Seamuis wrote:

>Quentin Martel wrote:
>
>  
>
>>We have an award for the consort of the second place finisher in the Tir 
>>Righ coronet lists. It's currently called the Lily. This clearly 
>>conflicts with every other Lily in the knowne world, so we'd like to 
>>find an alternative.
>> 
>>Issues: Keeping the "Lily" part is desireable as there is strong precent 
>>in An Tir for what a given Lily means. Plus we've been using that name 
>>for awhile and small changes are more desireable than large ones.
>> 
>>Attempts: Basically, we're looking for a ducmentable modifier for Lily 
>>that fits with the Tir Righ theme. Mountain Lily, Alpine Lily, and 
>>Edelweiss (a montain lily) were looked at, but the favority - Alpine 
>>Lily - ran smack into the fact that the Summits uses the Alpine theme 
>>heavily. Edelweiss would need some manuvering around Drachenwalkd 
>>conflict, but sacrifices the lily word.
>>    
>>
>
>Suggestions:
>
>Arctic Lily
>Boreal Lily (Borealilyalis?)
>Septentrian Lily
>Astral Lily
>Celestial Lily
>Frozen Lily
>Frost Lily
>Northern Lily
>
>Yours aye,
>Uilliam
>the as-yet-unnamed herald - workin' on it, really...
>
>  
>
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From mhood at shaw.ca  Sun Jun  3 21:31:08 2007
From: mhood at shaw.ca (mark hood)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 21:31:08 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <002c01c7a5a1$0df1da20$29d58e60$@ca>
	<auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <022401c7a661$2c5d0280$85170780$@ca>

Hum.  I think I'm still on the fence on this one.  To me, Lightning still
doesn't fall into the same category as the examples given.  This Blood is
Precious.  This is the Pontifical Medal.  This Phial is Holy.

 

This Spear is Lightning.

 

Maybe it's me, but I'm still debating this one.

 

Ullm

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:25 PM
To: 'Caitrina Sable Loat'; 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

Great points!

 

According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lightning, lightning can
be used as a noun, verb, or adjective. In it's adjective case, we fit
perfectly into the Adjective + Thing pattern listed at
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ (Adjective + Thing - Holy
Phial, Precious Blood, Pontifical Medal).

 

Would that work?

 

- QSY

 

  _____  

From: Caitrina Sable Loat [mailto:Caitrina at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:36 PM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

My lord Uilliam is suggesting the Stone Spear with Stone being an adjective.
(Stone, mountains. you get the gist).  Adjective + Thing does follow
frequently used patterns in accordance with the Project Ordensnamen.
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/ 

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Caitrina Sable
Loat
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 10:18 PM
To: 'Quentin Martel'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

I'm not sure if Lightning Spear would follow acceptable order naming
practices.  To me Lightning is a "thing" and I can find no instance showing
this would be acceptable.  It would be Lightning + Spear so Thing + Thing.
Although infrequent, it should be acceptable to name it Lightning & Spear
but that kind of takes away from the idea.  I'll keep looking and if anyone
thinks Lightning is not a thing let me know.

 

Caitrina

 

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 9:32 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion

 

Another thread for discussion a particular award name to pass.

 

Lightning Spear. This is to rename the Shattered Spear. The issue there is
there's no medieval precedent for a broken weapon to be an actual award.
Rather it was something you tried to avoid. I believe that the Old Shattered
Shield is passed through being passed when we accepted all sorts of
interesting things as valid documentation.

 

I like Lightning Spear! It's a spear, it fits the Tir Righ motif. The
holders of it can and should be proud of it.

 

Please discuss!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

  _____  

From: Rosemary Underhill [mailto:cocinera at shaw.ca] 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 11:46 AM
To: Quentin Martel; 'mark hood'; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: RE: [tirrigh-heralds] What a cool idea!

 

The Lightning Spear is clear of conflict as far as I am able to determine.

I am also going to send the info on the awards to our ban-Tanist Caoimhinn

who has emailed yesterday me asking for the information on the awards."

 

 

 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM

 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM

 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.6/828 - Release Date: 6/1/2007
11:22 AM

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From damozel at shaw.ca  Mon Jun  4 12:09:14 2007
From: damozel at shaw.ca (Laura Offley)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:09:14 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <46632DA0.2050709@prcn.org>
References: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<4662E8AF.4020007@shaw.ca> <46632DA0.2050709@prcn.org>
Message-ID: <4664635A.7090206@shaw.ca>

Greetings from Yolande,

An Tir uses Order of the Lily for the inspiration of the runner-up in 
Crown Tourney. That is where we stole the name from. So cannot use Lily 
on it's own as that is a direct conflict with An Tir.

The whole idea around the runner-up and inspiration awards was around 
the spear that the runner-up received. Runner-up received the "shaft" - 
get the pun? and the inspiration award was to be reflected in the wood 
that the spear was made of - many princesses have tossed ideas around 
about branches, trees, wood, flowering trees, the flower of a flowering 
tree, etc. No decisions were made, and it just defaulted to the name 
used at Kingdom - the Lily.

I like the idea of having the inspiration's award follow the model of 
what the spirit of the awards were first created as. So I would like to 
ditch Lily altogether because it is too close to An Tir's identity, and 
come up with a different name that reflects the strength that makes up 
the spear.

Thoughts?

Yolande



From damozel at shaw.ca  Mon Jun  4 12:15:01 2007
From: damozel at shaw.ca (Laura Offley)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:15:01 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lightning Spear discussion
In-Reply-To: <f329f622667a.4662917e@shaw.ca>
References: <002c01c7a5a1$0df1da20$29d58e60$@ca>
	<auto-000114068995@fe3.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<232740310706022353t2f064ce1hc893af6d318ad214@mail.gmail.com>
	<000501c7a5fe$f41b6220$dc522660$@ca> <f329f622667a.4662917e@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <466464B5.5030908@shaw.ca>

I kind of like this idea. There is great confusion in the principality 
in regards to the difference between the Silver Spear and the Shattered 
Spear. I have had to explain it many times. While I like Shattered Spear 
(and that's what the regalia is - the old spear that was physically 
broken in court at Tir Righ's first Coronet Tournament and a short 
length of it was given to the most ferocious fighter) if it can't pass, 
then I think we need to ditch the spear reference altogether.

Yolande

HL Anthony Hawke - GdS wrote:
> *Iff* that fails, we may want to consider mythical/Heroic or deific figures that were known in period to throw spears.
>
> Notables would be Achilles, Zeus, a (Roman) Legionaire, Odin (and the variant spellings thereof), etc. 
> If we were to try to keep a vestige of the Olde Shattered Spear in there, we could select a hero who is killed on the battlefield, such as Patroclus (whose death inspired Achilles to win the day) or Hector, the Prince that was killed by Achilles to end the war.  (I see alot of symbolism in the last one)
>
>
> -AH




From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 12:41:36 2007
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Britt)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 12:41:36 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <4664635A.7090206@shaw.ca>
References: <auto-000157969885@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<4662E8AF.4020007@shaw.ca> <46632DA0.2050709@prcn.org>
	<4664635A.7090206@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <232740310706041241r2e722eb3yabcb0935bde0310a@mail.gmail.com>

> An Tir uses Order of the Lily for the inspiration of the runner-up in
> Crown Tourney. That is where we stole the name from. So cannot use Lily
> on it's own as that is a direct conflict with An Tir.

I don't care what they call it, An Tir only owns the award names
Silver Lily and Permicious Lily (also Lily Pernicious).  These are the
registered Lily names of the SCA:

# Argent Lily, Order of the
    * This order name was registered to Meridies, Kingdom of in
September of 1995 (via Meridies).
# Calon Lily, Order of the
    * This order name was registered to Calontir, Kingdom of in
October of 1982 (via the Middle).
# Gilded Lily, Order of the
    * This order name was registered to Winter's Gate, Barony of in
November of 1982 (via the West).
# Lily Pernicious, Order of the
    * This order name was registered to An Tir, Kingdom of in August
of 1987 (via Laurel).
# Mountain Lily, Order of the
    * This order name was registered to Ered S?l, Barony of in March
of 1998 (via Atenveldt).
# Pernicious Lily, Order of the
    * This order name was registered to An Tir, Kingdom of in April of
1982 (via Laurel).
# Silver Lily, Order of the
    * This order name was registered to An Tir, Kingdom of in February
of 1999 (via An Tir).
# Water Lily, Order of the
    * This order name was registered to Marinus, Barony of in August
of 1992 (via Atlantia).

Of the above, the one that does directly conflict with the simply
'Lily' or 'Lily of Tir Righ' (or any other branch name), is the Calon
Lily, as a branch name reference is not enough to clear conflict.  So
should 'Lily of Tir Righ' or somesuch be desirable, we ask permission
to conflict with Calontir.  I might have some second-party clout we
could tap for that.

Someone was looking for local lily types - that only works if the
plant was also found in period Europe or was a New World type
well-known to period Europeans.

There's nothing at all wrong with having another Lily.  The trick is
keeping it simply and finding something catchy enough to use that's
clear.

- Teceangl



From cocinera at shaw.ca  Mon Jun  4 14:22:52 2007
From: cocinera at shaw.ca (Rosemary Underhill)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:22:52 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <4664635A.7090206@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFIEAFDMAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>

Greetings all


Mistress Yolande wrote,

(large snip)

I like the idea of having the inspiration's award follow the model of
what the spirit of the awards were first created as. So I would like to
ditch Lily altogether because it is too close to An Tir's identity, and
come up with a different name that reflects the strength that makes up
the spear.

Thoughts?

Following her idea and the idea of an alpine flower I check out some
European Alpine alternatives, I'm sure there are many more but I hope these
are good to further this discussion.



Campanula rotundifolia, Blue Bells,  Alpine Scotch Bluebell,
http://www.paghat.com

Gentiana nivalis, Snow Gentian  http://androsace.com/?c=The+European+Alps

Aquilegia alpina, Alpine Columbine
http://androsace.com/?c=The+European+Alps
.
Primula hirsuta, Red Alpine Primrose
http://androsace.com/?c=The+European+Alps

I  do have pictures of all of these.   If you can accept an attachement and
would like them, let me know

Theocharista Red Flame


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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12:47 PM




From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Mon Jun  4 16:17:09 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:17:09 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
Message-ID: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>

Greetings unto the College of Heralds of Tir Righ from Quentin Silver Yale!

 

One of our duties as a College of Heralds is to provide the Coronet with a
ceremonial. This ceremonial is the default ceremonial that the Coronet can
use should They so choose or if They would prefer not to write Their own
ceremony from scratch. Additionally for those Coronets who want to write
Their own ceremonies, we still need to provide support and guidance to Their
efforts.

 

The process of making a ceremonial for the Principality has been ongoing by
many, many hands for my entire tenure as Silver Yale. Many ceremonies have
been written, some have been used, but all of them suffer from one major
drawback. That drawback is how do we know if that ceremony is good,
sufficient, correct, and accepted by the Principality?

 

In order to answer this question, I am proposing that we endorse and enact
the following process.

 

We create a ceremonial committee. This committee is comprised of 5 members:
Silver Yale, the Tir Righ Court Herald (or another staff herald if there is
no Court Herald) and 3 at large members. I would like the committee to be as
diverse as possible. Both genders represented, Royal Peers, people who have
served as a Landed Baron or Baroness, Court patrons, Retinue members, and so
on. This committee needs to be familiar with what works for a ceremony from
many different perspectives.

 

That committee will make a list of requirements for our ceremonies. Here is
my starting list:

 

A Tir Righ ceremony must

- Honor all Principality, Kingdom, and Society traditions

- Perform the ceremony it claims

- Be easy to perform

- Be neither too quick nor too long

- Take into account positions of those involved

- Have people make proper entrances and exits

- Be performable even if major artifacts are missing

 

 

 

In order to add, delete, or change a ceremony in the official Tir Righ
ceremonial, someone comes forward with a ceremony to add, wordings to
change, or the call to delete a ceremony from the ceremonial. Anyone can do
this. If Viscountess Amanda wants a change in the ceremonial, this is what
she does. If John the Great Newcomer wants to write a ceremony to be
evaluated for the ceremonial, he can do so!

 

The committee gets between 2 weeks and a month to evaluate the ceremony. A
simple majority vote is needed to get the committee's recommendation. If it
passes the committee, the ceremony is sent to the Coronet for Thier
approval. If the Coronet approves, the ceremony is added to the Tir Righ
ceremonial.

 

Note that this doesn't stop the Coronet from using Their preferred ceremony.
Rather it gives our Coronet the solid backdrop of a consistent and agreed
upon ceremonial that They can use as They see fit. Also, this ceremonial can
have multiple different ceremonies that do the same thing, just in different
ways.

 

What this does give us is an agreed upon process to make our ceremonies
official. Rather than having to get buy off from everyone, we have a body
that is designed to evaluate our ceremonies, charged with the responsibility
to do so, and given the power to carry out that job.

 

 

 

This is my proposal to the College. Please let me know what you think!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

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From mhood at shaw.ca  Mon Jun  4 21:04:30 2007
From: mhood at shaw.ca (mark hood)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:04:30 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFIEAFDMAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
References: <4664635A.7090206@shaw.ca>
	<JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFIEAFDMAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <003301c7a726$a0092c20$e01b8460$@ca>

I'm of a mind agreeing with Yolande, but going in a different direction than
flowers.  When I think of the inspirations for our Tir Righ warriors, I
don't think delicate flowers.  I think strong, powerful women; feminine, but
not dainty. Perhaps there's another direction to take this, but I'm really
tired and heading to bed and can't think of one yet.

Ullm

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Rosemary
Underhill
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 2:23 PM
To: Laura Offley; Tir Righ Heralds
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion

Greetings all


Mistress Yolande wrote,

(large snip)

I like the idea of having the inspiration's award follow the model of
what the spirit of the awards were first created as. So I would like to
ditch Lily altogether because it is too close to An Tir's identity, and
come up with a different name that reflects the strength that makes up
the spear.

Thoughts?

Following her idea and the idea of an alpine flower I check out some
European Alpine alternatives, I'm sure there are many more but I hope these
are good to further this discussion.



Campanula rotundifolia, Blue Bells,  Alpine Scotch Bluebell,
http://www.paghat.com

Gentiana nivalis, Snow Gentian  http://androsace.com/?c=The+European+Alps

Aquilegia alpina, Alpine Columbine
http://androsace.com/?c=The+European+Alps
.
Primula hirsuta, Red Alpine Primrose
http://androsace.com/?c=The+European+Alps

I  do have pictures of all of these.   If you can accept an attachement and
would like them, let me know

Theocharista Red Flame


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date: 03/06/2007
12:47 PM


_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org




From duncan1466 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  5 03:09:56 2007
From: duncan1466 at yahoo.com (Duncan Darroch)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 03:09:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
In-Reply-To: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <668230.71517.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

As out going deputy Herald - Voice and Court... I say big HAZZAH to QSY
I like it, I like it alot.

YIS
Duncan

--- Quentin Martel <quentin at shittimwoode.org> wrote:

> Greetings unto the College of Heralds of Tir Righ from Quentin Silver
> Yale!
> 
>  
> 
> One of our duties as a College of Heralds is to provide the Coronet
> with a ceremonial. This ceremonial is the default ceremonial that the
> Coronet can use should They so choose or if They would prefer not to 
> write Their own ceremony from scratch....


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.  
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL



From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Tue Jun  5 16:16:50 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 16:16:50 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFIEAFDMAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <002201c7a7c7$acf0ef30$6800a8c0@laptop>


Are there particular flowers that can incorporate the storm motif?

- QSY

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Rosemary
Underhill
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 2:23 PM
To: Laura Offley; Tir Righ Heralds
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion

Greetings all


Mistress Yolande wrote,

(large snip)

I like the idea of having the inspiration's award follow the model of
what the spirit of the awards were first created as. So I would like to
ditch Lily altogether because it is too close to An Tir's identity, and
come up with a different name that reflects the strength that makes up
the spear.

Thoughts?

Following her idea and the idea of an alpine flower I check out some
European Alpine alternatives, I'm sure there are many more but I hope these
are good to further this discussion.



Campanula rotundifolia, Blue Bells,  Alpine Scotch Bluebell,
http://www.paghat.com

Gentiana nivalis, Snow Gentian  http://androsace.com/?c=The+European+Alps

Aquilegia alpina, Alpine Columbine
http://androsace.com/?c=The+European+Alps
.
Primula hirsuta, Red Alpine Primrose
http://androsace.com/?c=The+European+Alps

I  do have pictures of all of these.   If you can accept an attachement and
would like them, let me know

Theocharista Red Flame


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date: 03/06/2007
12:47 PM


_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org




From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Tue Jun  5 16:16:50 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 16:16:50 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <4664635A.7090206@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <002301c7a7c7$ad387f80$6800a8c0@laptop>


Thank you, Yolande!

What about the confusion factor? We've been using lilies for awhile now even
in Tir Righ.

- Quentin

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Laura Offley
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:09 PM
To: Tir Righ Heralds
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion

Greetings from Yolande,

An Tir uses Order of the Lily for the inspiration of the runner-up in 
Crown Tourney. That is where we stole the name from. So cannot use Lily 
on it's own as that is a direct conflict with An Tir.

The whole idea around the runner-up and inspiration awards was around 
the spear that the runner-up received. Runner-up received the "shaft" - 
get the pun? and the inspiration award was to be reflected in the wood 
that the spear was made of - many princesses have tossed ideas around 
about branches, trees, wood, flowering trees, the flower of a flowering 
tree, etc. No decisions were made, and it just defaulted to the name 
used at Kingdom - the Lily.

I like the idea of having the inspiration's award follow the model of 
what the spirit of the awards were first created as. So I would like to 
ditch Lily altogether because it is too close to An Tir's identity, and 
come up with a different name that reflects the strength that makes up 
the spear.

Thoughts?

Yolande

_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org




From damozel at shaw.ca  Tue Jun  5 20:33:38 2007
From: damozel at shaw.ca (Laura Offley)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 20:33:38 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <002301c7a7c7$ad387f80$6800a8c0@laptop>
References: <002301c7a7c7$ad387f80$6800a8c0@laptop>
Message-ID: <46662B12.9050709@shaw.ca>

Funnily enough, I haven't had anyone inquire about it - (the confusion 
with kingdom, that is). I don't think enough people know that the Silver 
Spear and Silver Lily exist. We don't have ceremonies in the Ceremonial 
for them, so there is no definitive ceremony for the populace to hear 
and remember.

Yolande

Quentin Martel wrote:
> Thank you, Yolande!
>
> What about the confusion factor? We've been using lilies for awhile now even
> in Tir Righ.
>
> - Quentin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
> [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Laura Offley
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:09 PM
> To: Tir Righ Heralds
> Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
>
> Greetings from Yolande,
>
> An Tir uses Order of the Lily for the inspiration of the runner-up in 
> Crown Tourney. That is where we stole the name from. So cannot use Lily 
> on it's own as that is a direct conflict with An Tir.
>
> The whole idea around the runner-up and inspiration awards was around 
> the spear that the runner-up received. Runner-up received the "shaft" - 
> get the pun? and the inspiration award was to be reflected in the wood 
> that the spear was made of - many princesses have tossed ideas around 
> about branches, trees, wood, flowering trees, the flower of a flowering 
> tree, etc. No decisions were made, and it just defaulted to the name 
> used at Kingdom - the Lily.
>
> I like the idea of having the inspiration's award follow the model of 
> what the spirit of the awards were first created as. So I would like to 
> ditch Lily altogether because it is too close to An Tir's identity, and 
> come up with a different name that reflects the strength that makes up 
> the spear.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Yolande
>
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>
>
>   




From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Wed Jun  6 23:20:45 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 23:20:45 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
In-Reply-To: <668230.71517.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<668230.71517.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c7a8cc$021ae420$6800a8c0@laptop>

Thank you!

Here's where we stand on this process. I've talked with quite a few people
about it at this point. I've heard a few tweaks and additions to the
process, but no major concerns brought up about it.

I'll give it another week on this list for comments and if I hear of no
major issues with the idea, I'll enact it at that point.

Please send your comments either to me directly (herald at tirrigh.org) or to
this mailing list. Thank you!

- Quentin Silver Yale



-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Darroch [mailto:duncan1466 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 3:10 AM
To: Quentin Martel
Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process

As out going deputy Herald - Voice and Court... I say big HAZZAH to QSY
I like it, I like it alot.

YIS
Duncan

--- Quentin Martel <quentin at shittimwoode.org> wrote:

> Greetings unto the College of Heralds of Tir Righ from Quentin Silver
> Yale!
> 
>  
> 
> One of our duties as a College of Heralds is to provide the Coronet
> with a ceremonial. This ceremonial is the default ceremonial that the
> Coronet can use should They so choose or if They would prefer not to 
> write Their own ceremony from scratch....


 
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Get your own web address.  
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL




From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Wed Jun  6 23:20:45 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 23:20:45 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database
Message-ID: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop>

Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds!

 

 

This is a quick update on one of our projects, the client tracking database.


 

First, I decided that the goal of this project is only to track where our
clients are in the submissions process. It is not designed to track all of
the heraldic details of that process. That may be added later, but we need
to take small steps with this. Besides, that information is more appropriate
for OSCAR and we're not trying to duplicate those efforts.

 

Accordingly, we have two tables, one to track information about the person
himself and one to track the information about the submission itself. 

 

Those two tables are Client and Submission. Client has the following fields:

            [ClientID] [int] IDENTITY (1, 1) NOT NULL , - The unique
identifier of the row in the table

            [SCAName] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NOT NULL , - the SCAName of the person. This is required since we identify
people by name and branch

            [Branch] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NOT NULL , - the Branch of the person. This is required since we identify
people by name and branch

            [ModernName] [varchar] (255) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - the modern name of the person.

            [Address] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NULL , - The street address of the person

            [Phone] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NULL , - the phone number of the person

            [Email] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NULL , - the email address of the person

            [Birthdate] [datetime] NULL , - the birthdate of the person

            [LastUpdate] [datetime] NOT NULL CONSTRAINT
[DF_Client_LastUpdate] DEFAULT (6 / 6 / 2007), - the date this row was last
updated. Useful for internal reasons

 

Submission has the following fields

 

            [SubmissionID] [int] IDENTITY (1, 1) NOT NULL , - Unique
identifier of the submission

            [ClientID] [int] NOT NULL , - the person who is submitting
heraldry. Required

            [HeraldID] [int] NULL , - the consulting herald

            [Type] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NOT
NULL , - the type of submission (Name, Device, Badge)

            [Notes] [varchar] (2000) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NULL , - a notes field for information about the submission

            [StartDate] [datetime] NOT NULL , - the date the process
started. This is a sketchy date, but basically it's when the client got
serious about wanting to register his heraldry. Required

            [KSubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
submitted to Kingdom

            [ILOIPubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
published in the ILOI

            [KRetDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
returned by Kingdom for more work

            [KPassDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry passed
Kingdom

            [LOARPubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
published in the LOAR

            [LRetDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
returned by Laurel

            [LPassDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was passed
by Laurel (in other words, it was registered)

            [LastUpdate] [datetime] NOT NULL CONSTRAINT
[DF_Submission_LastUpdate] DEFAULT (6 / 6 / 2007), - the date this row was
last updated

 

>From a technical side, the computer can look at the dates of Start, KSub,
ILOI, et al and see what the latest date is. That's the stage the heraldry
is in. From that information, we can make lists of who has what where and
keep on top of them.

 

So does this look good? Are we missing anything? Are there any superfluous
fields?

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

 

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From Caitrina at shaw.ca  Wed Jun  6 23:42:53 2007
From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (CAITRINA SABLE LOAT)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 23:42:53 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database
In-Reply-To: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop>
References: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop>
Message-ID: <ce77b23eeaf7.4667467d@shaw.ca>

Greetings and YAY!  A project near and dear to me (hey I'm selfish).

Looking over the tables it seems everything is covered.  I'm still undecided on the birthdate.  I first thought the reason it was required on the submission forms was due to the legal signature once required (if you're not legal how can you have a legal signature right?)  But the signature block was removed from the new submission forms so it really makes one wonder why do we need the person's date of birth?  The only reason I can come up with stems from having a father and brother who have the same names and bank at the same branch.  The only way their bank can tell them appart is by their birthdate... hence the reason my father goes by Senior now (should have thought of that before they named my brother).

anyway, it's late, I'm mumbling and maybe a more experienced herald knows why we need the birthdate on submission forms?  A little off the client tracking database topic but if anything I'm curious.

Caitrina
-------------- next part --------------
Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds!

 

 

This is a quick update on one of our projects, the client tracking database.


 

First, I decided that the goal of this project is only to track where our
clients are in the submissions process. It is not designed to track all of
the heraldic details of that process. That may be added later, but we need
to take small steps with this. Besides, that information is more appropriate
for OSCAR and we're not trying to duplicate those efforts.

 

Accordingly, we have two tables, one to track information about the person
himself and one to track the information about the submission itself. 

 

Those two tables are Client and Submission. Client has the following fields:

            [ClientID] [int] IDENTITY (1, 1) NOT NULL , - The unique
identifier of the row in the table

            [SCAName] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NOT NULL , - the SCAName of the person. This is required since we identify
people by name and branch

            [Branch] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NOT NULL , - the Branch of the person. This is required since we identify
people by name and branch

            [ModernName] [varchar] (255) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - the modern name of the person.

            [Address] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NULL , - The street address of the person

            [Phone] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NULL , - the phone number of the person

            [Email] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NULL , - the email address of the person

            [Birthdate] [datetime] NULL , - the birthdate of the person

            [LastUpdate] [datetime] NOT NULL CONSTRAINT
[DF_Client_LastUpdate] DEFAULT (6 / 6 / 2007), - the date this row was last
updated. Useful for internal reasons

 

Submission has the following fields

 

            [SubmissionID] [int] IDENTITY (1, 1) NOT NULL , - Unique
identifier of the submission

            [ClientID] [int] NOT NULL , - the person who is submitting
heraldry. Required

            [HeraldID] [int] NULL , - the consulting herald

            [Type] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NOT
NULL , - the type of submission (Name, Device, Badge)

            [Notes] [varchar] (2000) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS
NULL , - a notes field for information about the submission

            [StartDate] [datetime] NOT NULL , - the date the process
started. This is a sketchy date, but basically it's when the client got
serious about wanting to register his heraldry. Required

            [KSubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
submitted to Kingdom

            [ILOIPubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
published in the ILOI

            [KRetDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
returned by Kingdom for more work

            [KPassDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry passed
Kingdom

            [LOARPubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
published in the LOAR

            [LRetDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
returned by Laurel

            [LPassDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was passed
by Laurel (in other words, it was registered)

            [LastUpdate] [datetime] NOT NULL CONSTRAINT
[DF_Submission_LastUpdate] DEFAULT (6 / 6 / 2007), - the date this row was
last updated

 

>From a technical side, the computer can look at the dates of Start, KSub,
ILOI, et al and see what the latest date is. That's the stage the heraldry
is in. From that information, we can make lists of who has what where and
keep on top of them.

 

So does this look good? Are we missing anything? Are there any superfluous
fields?

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

 

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_______________________________________________
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Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org

From uilliam at shaw.ca  Wed Jun  6 23:47:02 2007
From: uilliam at shaw.ca (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uilliam_mac_Ail=E9ne_mhic_Seamuis?=)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 23:47:02 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database
In-Reply-To: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop>
References: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop>
Message-ID: <4667A9E6.8080805@shaw.ca>

Quentin Martel wrote:
> Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds!

... [snip of database definition]...

> 
> So does this look good? Are we missing anything? Are there any 
> superfluous fields?

You, sir, pick the dammedest times to ask questions like this. It's 20 
after eleven, man! Go to bed! :-D

I'll take a dekko at it when I get home from work tomorrow.

Yours aye,
Uilliam
(who speaks database, but not nearly as much as QSY...)

-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/



From nomad at castle.org  Thu Jun  7 07:34:35 2007
From: nomad at castle.org (Lee Damon)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 07:34:35 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database
In-Reply-To: <ce77b23eeaf7.4667467d@shaw.ca>
References: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop>
	<ce77b23eeaf7.4667467d@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <4668177B.6030401@castle.org>

CAITRINA SABLE LOAT wrote:

> Looking over the tables it seems everything is covered.  I'm still undecided on the birthdate.  I first thought the reason it was required on the submission forms was due to the legal signature once required (if you're not legal how can you have a legal signature right?)  But the signature block was removed from the new submission forms so it really makes one wonder why do we need the person's date of birth?  The only reason I can come up with stems from having a father and brother who have the same names and bank at the same branch.  The only way their bank can tell them appart is by their birthdate... hence the reason my father goes by Senior now (should have thought of that before they named my brother).

Laurel needs the birth date for exactly the reason you mention.  If
multiple people with the same name submit things we need to be able to
tell them apart.

CTBL



From Caitrina at shaw.ca  Thu Jun  7 08:08:47 2007
From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (CAITRINA SABLE LOAT)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:08:47 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database
In-Reply-To: <4668177B.6030401@castle.org>
References: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop>
	<ce77b23eeaf7.4667467d@shaw.ca> <4668177B.6030401@castle.org>
Message-ID: <cc0189a790f0.4667bd0f@shaw.ca>

Thank you so much for the info Lord Christopher. 

Caitrina

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Damon <nomad at castle.org>
Date: Thursday, June 7, 2007 7:34 am
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database

> CAITRINA SABLE LOAT wrote:
> 
> > Looking over the tables it seems everything is covered.  I'm 
> still undecided on the birthdate.  I first thought the reason it 
> was required on the submission forms was due to the legal 
> signature once required (if you're not legal how can you have a 
> legal signature right?)  But the signature block was removed from 
> the new submission forms so it really makes one wonder why do we 
> need the person's date of birth?  The only reason I can come up 
> with stems from having a father and brother who have the same 
> names and bank at the same branch.  The only way their bank can 
> tell them appart is by their birthdate... hence the reason my 
> father goes by Senior now (should have thought of that before they 
> named my brother).
> 
> Laurel needs the birth date for exactly the reason you mention.  If
> multiple people with the same name submit things we need to be 
> able to
> tell them apart.
> 
> CTBL
> 



From damozel at shaw.ca  Thu Jun  7 10:53:09 2007
From: damozel at shaw.ca (Laura Offley)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:53:09 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
In-Reply-To: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <46684605.1080701@shaw.ca>

Greetings from Yolande,

I like this idea of an ongoing Ceremonial Committee, not just one that 
does the work once and is disbanded. The Ceremonial is a fluid, 
ever-changing creature, yet is full of history and traditions that we 
don't want to loose. A regular group of people working on it is a good idea.

Quentin wrote:
"That drawback is how do we know if that ceremony is good, sufficient, 
correct, and accepted by the Principality?"

A ceremonial does not need to be accepted by the Principality. Sure, it 
should be good, sufficient, and correct. But accepted? Maybe I'm missing 
your point here.

Quentin wrote:
"In order to add, delete, or change a ceremony in the official Tir Righ 
ceremonial, someone comes forward with a ceremony to add, wordings to 
change, or the call to delete a ceremony from the ceremonial. Anyone can 
do this. If Viscountess Amanda wants a change in the ceremonial, this is 
what she does. If John the Great Newcomer wants to write a ceremony to 
be evaluated for the ceremonial, he can do so!"


I disagree with this. Anyone does not, and should not, have the power 
nor the right to do this.

One very important thing needs to be remembered - that the Ceremonies 
are the word of the Coronet. Just as Heralds are the voice of the 
Coronet. I have a problem with John the Great Newcomer coming up and 
wanting to change the words of the Coronet. It is not his right to do 
so. And respectfully, neither is it the right of a Royal Peer. The only 
ones that can do that are the Royals. Certainly anyone can make 
suggestions, but the committee would be there to vet the suggestions and 
then present the changes to the Royals for acceptance or not. I'm hoping 
this is what you meant.

As for who makes up the committee, Quentin mentions Court Patrons. Do 
you mean Royal Patrons? Otherwise, I don't know what a Court Patron is.

This idea of an ongoing Ceremonies Committee should be made first to 
Their Highnesses to see if They are in agreement with having a 
Ceremonial Committee (I don't see why They wouldn't agree - it's more a 
matter of principle). Once Their permission is gained, then a formal 
proposal can be written, along with a list of names for committee 
members and submitted to Them for final approval.

Yolande (who is *extremely* reluctant to take on any more work, but who 
really is interested from a retinue perspective . . .)

Quentin Martel wrote:
>
> Greetings unto the College of Heralds of Tir Righ from Quentin Silver 
> Yale!
>
>  
>
> One of our duties as a College of Heralds is to provide the Coronet 
> with a ceremonial. This ceremonial is the default ceremonial that the 
> Coronet can use should They so choose or if They would prefer not to 
> write Their own ceremony from scratch. Additionally for those Coronets 
> who want to write Their own ceremonies, we still need to provide 
> support and guidance to Their efforts.
>
>  
>
> The process of making a ceremonial for the Principality has been 
> ongoing by many, many hands for my entire tenure as Silver Yale. Many 
> ceremonies have been written, some have been used, but all of them 
> suffer from one major drawback. That drawback is how do we know if 
> that ceremony is good, sufficient, correct, and accepted by the 
> Principality?
>
>  
>
> In order to answer this question, I am proposing that we endorse and 
> enact the following process.
>
>  
>
> We create a ceremonial committee. This committee is comprised of 5 
> members: Silver Yale, the Tir Righ Court Herald (or another staff 
> herald if there is no Court Herald) and 3 at large members. I would 
> like the committee to be as diverse as possible. Both genders 
> represented, Royal Peers, people who have served as a Landed Baron or 
> Baroness, Court patrons, Retinue members, and so on. This committee 
> needs to be familiar with what works for a ceremony from many 
> different perspectives.
>
>  
>
> That committee will make a list of requirements for our ceremonies. 
> Here is my starting list:
>
>  
>
> A Tir Righ ceremony must
>
> - Honor all Principality, Kingdom, and Society traditions
>
> - Perform the ceremony it claims
>
> - Be easy to perform
>
> - Be neither too quick nor too long
>
> - Take into account positions of those involved
>
> - Have people make proper entrances and exits
>
> - Be performable even if major artifacts are missing
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> In order to add, delete, or change a ceremony in the official Tir Righ 
> ceremonial, someone comes forward with a ceremony to add, wordings to 
> change, or the call to delete a ceremony from the ceremonial. Anyone 
> can do this. If Viscountess Amanda wants a change in the ceremonial, 
> this is what she does. If John the Great Newcomer wants to write a 
> ceremony to be evaluated for the ceremonial, he can do so!
>
>  
>
> The committee gets between 2 weeks and a month to evaluate the 
> ceremony. A simple majority vote is needed to get the committee's 
> recommendation. If it passes the committee, the ceremony is sent to 
> the Coronet for Thier approval. If the Coronet approves, the ceremony 
> is added to the Tir Righ ceremonial.
>
>  
>
> Note that this doesn't stop the Coronet from using Their preferred 
> ceremony. Rather it gives our Coronet the solid backdrop of a 
> consistent and agreed upon ceremonial that They can use as They see 
> fit. Also, this ceremonial can have multiple different ceremonies that 
> do the same thing, just in different ways.
>
>  
>
> What this does give us is an agreed upon process to make our 
> ceremonies official. Rather than having to get buy off from everyone, 
> we have a body that is designed to evaluate our ceremonies, charged 
> with the responsibility to do so, and given the power to carry out 
> that job.
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> This is my proposal to the College. Please let me know what you think!
>
>  
>
> - Quentin Silver Yale
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.7/830 - Release Date: 6/3/2007 12:47 PM
>   

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From mhood at shaw.ca  Thu Jun  7 16:00:02 2007
From: mhood at shaw.ca (mark hood)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:00:02 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
In-Reply-To: <003b01c7a8cc$021ae420$6800a8c0@laptop>
References: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<668230.71517.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<003b01c7a8cc$021ae420$6800a8c0@laptop>
Message-ID: <009801c7a957$94f2af90$bed80eb0$@ca>

You know I'm onboard boss.

Uilliam

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:21 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process

Thank you!

Here's where we stand on this process. I've talked with quite a few people
about it at this point. I've heard a few tweaks and additions to the
process, but no major concerns brought up about it.

I'll give it another week on this list for comments and if I hear of no
major issues with the idea, I'll enact it at that point.

Please send your comments either to me directly (herald at tirrigh.org) or to
this mailing list. Thank you!

- Quentin Silver Yale



-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Darroch [mailto:duncan1466 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 3:10 AM
To: Quentin Martel
Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process

As out going deputy Herald - Voice and Court... I say big HAZZAH to QSY
I like it, I like it alot.

YIS
Duncan

--- Quentin Martel <quentin at shittimwoode.org> wrote:

> Greetings unto the College of Heralds of Tir Righ from Quentin Silver
> Yale!
> 
>  
> 
> One of our duties as a College of Heralds is to provide the Coronet
> with a ceremonial. This ceremonial is the default ceremonial that the
> Coronet can use should They so choose or if They would prefer not to 
> write Their own ceremony from scratch....


 
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Get your own web address.  
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL


_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org




From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Thu Jun  7 16:25:07 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 16:25:07 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database
In-Reply-To: <4667A9E6.8080805@shaw.ca>
References: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop> <4667A9E6.8080805@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <000501c7a95b$1fe11030$6800a8c0@laptop>


Laugh!

As much as I'd like the reputation for working on TRCoH things at all hours
of the night, this one wasn't quite true. I think I wrote it while on the
bus to or from work, but I don't have a network to log my laptop into until
I get home. And I got home somewhere around 11 last night!

So during the week, you'll probably see a deluge of mail from me all at
roughly the same time. It's all the mail I did during my commute.

Laptops are wonderful things!

- QSY

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Uilliam mac
Ail?ne mhic Seamuis
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:47 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database

Quentin Martel wrote:
> Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds!

... [snip of database definition]...

> 
> So does this look good? Are we missing anything? Are there any 
> superfluous fields?

You, sir, pick the dammedest times to ask questions like this. It's 20 
after eleven, man! Go to bed! :-D

I'll take a dekko at it when I get home from work tomorrow.

Yours aye,
Uilliam
(who speaks database, but not nearly as much as QSY...)

-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/

_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org




From richenda at cet.com  Thu Jun  7 20:47:52 2007
From: richenda at cet.com (Richenda du Jardin)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:47:52 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database
In-Reply-To: <ce77b23eeaf7.4667467d@shaw.ca>
References: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop>
	<ce77b23eeaf7.4667467d@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <4668D168.8060805@cet.com>

The birthdate was only required so Laurel could tell the difference 
between two submissions when the mundane names and SCA names match. 
Because of the mobility of our society now, address is not a reliable 
indicator of identity. I was working on Laurel staff when the SCA name 
were the same on name submissions (there was some uncertainty at the 
kingdom level as to whether or not the submission had been forwarded) 
and the mundane names were the same. While the addresses were different, 
that was not a good indicator that the people were different (for 
example, I've lived at five different addresses since 2002). When the 
birthdates were compared, they were different, so we were pretty sure 
the people were different.

While the field asks for birthdate, Laurel doesn't really care as long 
as the date that the submitter will use will always be the same.

Richenda

CAITRINA SABLE LOAT wrote:
> Greetings and YAY!  A project near and dear to me (hey I'm selfish).
>
> Looking over the tables it seems everything is covered.  I'm still undecided on the birthdate.  I first thought the reason it was required on the submission forms was due to the legal signature once required (if you're not legal how can you have a legal signature right?)  But the signature block was removed from the new submission forms so it really makes one wonder why do we need the person's date of birth?  The only reason I can come up with stems from having a father and brother who have the same names and bank at the same branch.  The only way their bank can tell them appart is by their birthdate... hence the reason my father goes by Senior now (should have thought of that before they named my brother).
>
> anyway, it's late, I'm mumbling and maybe a more experienced herald knows why we need the birthdate on submission forms?  A little off the client tracking database topic but if anything I'm curious.
>
> Caitrina
>
>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds!
>
> This is a quick update on one of our projects, the client tracking 
> database.
>
> First, I decided that the goal of this project is only to track where 
> our clients are in the submissions process. It is not designed to 
> track all of the heraldic details of that process. That may be added 
> later, but we need to take small steps with this. Besides, that 
> information is more appropriate for OSCAR and we?re not trying to 
> duplicate those efforts.
>
> Accordingly, we have two tables, one to track information about the 
> person himself and one to track the information about the submission 
> itself.
>
> Those two tables are Client and Submission. Client has the following 
> fields:
>
> [ClientID] [int] IDENTITY (1, 1) NOT NULL , - The unique identifier of 
> the row in the table
>
> [SCAName] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NOT 
> NULL , - the SCAName of the person. This is required since we identify 
> people by name and branch
>
> [Branch] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NOT NULL 
> , - the Branch of the person. This is required since we identify 
> people by name and branch
>
> [ModernName] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL 
> , - the modern name of the person.
>
> [Address] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , 
> - The street address of the person
>
> [Phone] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - 
> the phone number of the person
>
> [Email] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - 
> the email address of the person
>
> [Birthdate] [datetime] NULL , - the birthdate of the person
>
> [LastUpdate] [datetime] NOT NULL CONSTRAINT [DF_Client_LastUpdate] 
> DEFAULT (6 / 6 / 2007), - the date this row was last updated. Useful 
> for internal reasons
>
> Submission has the following fields
>
> [SubmissionID] [int] IDENTITY (1, 1) NOT NULL , - Unique identifier of 
> the submission
>
> [ClientID] [int] NOT NULL , - the person who is submitting heraldry. 
> Required
>
> [HeraldID] [int] NULL , - the consulting herald
>
> [Type] [varchar] (255) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NOT NULL , 
> - the type of submission (Name, Device, Badge)
>
> [Notes] [varchar] (2000) COLLATE SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - 
> a notes field for information about the submission
>
> [StartDate] [datetime] NOT NULL , - the date the process started. This 
> is a sketchy date, but basically it?s when the client got serious 
> about wanting to register his heraldry. Required
>
> [KSubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was submitted to 
> Kingdom
>
> [ILOIPubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was published 
> in the ILOI
>
> [KRetDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was returned by 
> Kingdom for more work
>
> [KPassDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry passed Kingdom
>
> [LOARPubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was published 
> in the LOAR
>
> [LRetDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was returned by 
> Laurel
>
> [LPassDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was passed by 
> Laurel (in other words, it was registered)
>
> [LastUpdate] [datetime] NOT NULL CONSTRAINT [DF_Submission_LastUpdate] 
> DEFAULT (6 / 6 / 2007), - the date this row was last updated
>
> From a technical side, the computer can look at the dates of Start, 
> KSub, ILOI, et al and see what the latest date is. That?s the stage 
> the heraldry is in. From that information, we can make lists of who 
> has what where and keep on top of them.
>
> So does this look good? Are we missing anything? Are there any 
> superfluous fields?
>
> - Quentin Silver Yale
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Collegeofheralds mailing list
> Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
> http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>   




From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Fri Jun  8 19:39:01 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 19:39:01 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
In-Reply-To: <46684605.1080701@shaw.ca>
References: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<46684605.1080701@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <007801c7aa3f$6a28aa60$6800a8c0@laptop>


Great comments Yolande Silver Pillar!

Ongoing committee: There's an interesting name the Standing Ceremonial
Committee

Acceptance: I think that we're on the same page here. If a person writes a
ceremony, that ceremony needs to be accepted as right and proper by some set
of people in the Principality. Who exactly comprises that set is a matter of
debate. My proposal lists exactly who those positions are, specifically the
ceremonial committee and the Coronet.

Currently, to get acceptance, one would have to talk to...well, I'm not
sure. The Coronet certainly. Silver Yale? Seems like a good choice being the
chief heraldic officer of the Principality, but I don't recall many
ceremonies coming to my doorstep for review. Tir Righ Court Herald? Head of
Retinue? Court Liaison? Heavily involved Royal Peer?

These are what are being answered. If someone wants to have direct input
into the process, get on the committee. Or failing that, talk to someone on
the committee. Or write the ceremony and submit it to the committee. Or, of
course, win Coronet. :)



The right of anyone to write a ceremony: I don't think that we're in actual
disagreement here. I believe that anyone should have the right to write a
ceremony and submit it to the ceremonial committee. This is how we can sell
the idea of getting involved in this process to those people in Tir Righ who
may have great ideas but may not have connections with the court itself.
This is also who to get people involved in our work, find, and recruit new
people to help us.

That person's ceremony will then be reviewed by the committee. No one gets
to place words in the mouth of the Coronet. However, anyone with ideas,
suggestions, or input will then have this avenue available to put their
great energy to work in helping the Principality!


Court patrons: Definition - someone who attends a court. The idea is that we
get many different views from many different perspectives. The perspective
of being on the throne is way different than being the herald than being the
court reporter than watching the court and so on.

- Quentin Silver Yale


-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Laura Offley
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:53 AM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process

Greetings from Yolande,

I like this idea of an ongoing Ceremonial Committee, not just one that does
the work once and is disbanded. The Ceremonial is a fluid, ever-changing
creature, yet is full of history and traditions that we don't want to loose.
A regular group of people working on it is a good idea.

Quentin wrote:
"That drawback is how do we know if that ceremony is good, sufficient,
correct, and accepted by the Principality?"

A ceremonial does not need to be accepted by the Principality. Sure, it
should be good, sufficient, and correct. But accepted? Maybe I'm missing
your point here.

Quentin wrote:
"In order to add, delete, or change a ceremony in the official Tir Righ
ceremonial, someone comes forward with a ceremony to add, wordings to
change, or the call to delete a ceremony from the ceremonial. Anyone can do
this. If Viscountess Amanda wants a change in the ceremonial, this is what
she does. If John the Great Newcomer wants to write a ceremony to be
evaluated for the ceremonial, he can do so!" 




I disagree with this. Anyone does not, and should not, have the power nor
the right to do this.

One very important thing needs to be remembered - that the Ceremonies are
the word of the Coronet. Just as Heralds are the voice of the Coronet. I
have a problem with John the Great Newcomer coming up and wanting to change
the words of the Coronet. It is not his right to do so. And respectfully,
neither is it the right of a Royal Peer. The only ones that can do that are
the Royals. Certainly anyone can make suggestions, but the committee would
be there to vet the suggestions and then present the changes to the Royals
for acceptance or not. I'm hoping this is what you meant.

As for who makes up the committee, Quentin mentions Court Patrons. Do you
mean Royal Patrons? Otherwise, I don't know what a Court Patron is.

This idea of an ongoing Ceremonies Committee should be made first to Their
Highnesses to see if They are in agreement with having a Ceremonial
Committee (I don't see why They wouldn't agree - it's more a matter of
principle). Once Their permission is gained, then a formal proposal can be
written, along with a list of names for committee members and submitted to
Them for final approval. 

Yolande (who is *extremely* reluctant to take on any more work, but who
really is interested from a retinue perspective . . .)

Quentin Martel wrote: 

	Greetings unto the College of Heralds of Tir Righ from Quentin
Silver Yale!

	 

	One of our duties as a College of Heralds is to provide the Coronet
with a ceremonial. This ceremonial is the default ceremonial that the
Coronet can use should They so choose or if They would prefer not to write
Their own ceremony from scratch. Additionally for those Coronets who want to
write Their own ceremonies, we still need to provide support and guidance to
Their efforts.

	 

	The process of making a ceremonial for the Principality has been
ongoing by many, many hands for my entire tenure as Silver Yale. Many
ceremonies have been written, some have been used, but all of them suffer
from one major drawback. That drawback is how do we know if that ceremony is
good, sufficient, correct, and accepted by the Principality?

	 

	In order to answer this question, I am proposing that we endorse and
enact the following process.

	 

	We create a ceremonial committee. This committee is comprised of 5
members: Silver Yale, the Tir Righ Court Herald (or another staff herald if
there is no Court Herald) and 3 at large members. I would like the committee
to be as diverse as possible. Both genders represented, Royal Peers, people
who have served as a Landed Baron or Baroness, Court patrons, Retinue
members, and so on. This committee needs to be familiar with what works for
a ceremony from many different perspectives.

	 

	That committee will make a list of requirements for our ceremonies.
Here is my starting list:

	 

	A Tir Righ ceremony must

	- Honor all Principality, Kingdom, and Society traditions

	- Perform the ceremony it claims

	- Be easy to perform

	- Be neither too quick nor too long

	- Take into account positions of those involved

	- Have people make proper entrances and exits

	- Be performable even if major artifacts are missing

	 

	 

	 

	In order to add, delete, or change a ceremony in the official Tir
Righ ceremonial, someone comes forward with a ceremony to add, wordings to
change, or the call to delete a ceremony from the ceremonial. Anyone can do
this. If Viscountess Amanda wants a change in the ceremonial, this is what
she does. If John the Great Newcomer wants to write a ceremony to be
evaluated for the ceremonial, he can do so!

	 

	The committee gets between 2 weeks and a month to evaluate the
ceremony. A simple majority vote is needed to get the committee's
recommendation. If it passes the committee, the ceremony is sent to the
Coronet for Thier approval. If the Coronet approves, the ceremony is added
to the Tir Righ ceremonial.

	 

	Note that this doesn't stop the Coronet from using Their preferred
ceremony. Rather it gives our Coronet the solid backdrop of a consistent and
agreed upon ceremonial that They can use as They see fit. Also, this
ceremonial can have multiple different ceremonies that do the same thing,
just in different ways.

	 

	What this does give us is an agreed upon process to make our
ceremonies official. Rather than having to get buy off from everyone, we
have a body that is designed to evaluate our ceremonies, charged with the
responsibility to do so, and given the power to carry out that job.

	 

	 

	 

	This is my proposal to the College. Please let me know what you
think!

	 

	- Quentin Silver Yale

	
________________________________


	_______________________________________________
	Collegeofheralds mailing list
	Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
	
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
	  
	
________________________________


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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Fri Jun  8 19:39:01 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 19:39:01 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database
In-Reply-To: <466807B6.7050908@prcn.org>
References: <002901c7a8cc$003bc3e0$6800a8c0@laptop> <466807B6.7050908@prcn.org>
Message-ID: <007b01c7aa3f$6de982f0$6800a8c0@laptop>


Great point! Something I should clarify for everyone:

The client table is information about each person, whether it's someone who
is submitting a piece of heraldry or the consulting herald. It's probably a
misnomer to call the table client, since it's going to be used two different
ways.

- QSY

-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Harcus [mailto:jharcus at prcn.org] 
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 6:27 AM
To: Quentin Martel
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database

The current form also has contact info for the consulting herald.  I was
contacted by Lions Blood once regarding a question on a client's submission
that enabled them to continue processing the submissions rather than return
it for clarification.  I don't know how often this happens but it can't if
you don't have the contact info.

Alicia
False Isle Pursuivant

Quentin Martel wrote:


	Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds!

	 

	 

	This is a quick update on one of our projects, the client tracking
database. 

	 

	First, I decided that the goal of this project is only to track
where our clients are in the submissions process. It is not designed to
track all of the heraldic details of that process. That may be added later,
but we need to take small steps with this. Besides, that information is more
appropriate for OSCAR and we're not trying to duplicate those efforts.

	 

	Accordingly, we have two tables, one to track information about the
person himself and one to track the information about the submission itself.


	 

	Those two tables are Client and Submission. Client has the following
fields:

	            [ClientID] [int] IDENTITY (1, 1) NOT NULL , - The unique
identifier of the row in the table

	            [SCAName] [varchar] (255) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NOT NULL , - the SCAName of the person. This is
required since we identify people by name and branch

	            [Branch] [varchar] (255) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NOT NULL , - the Branch of the person. This is
required since we identify people by name and branch

	            [ModernName] [varchar] (255) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - the modern name of the person.

	            [Address] [varchar] (255) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - The street address of the person

	            [Phone] [varchar] (255) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - the phone number of the person

	            [Email] [varchar] (255) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - the email address of the person

	            [Birthdate] [datetime] NULL , - the birthdate of the
person

	            [LastUpdate] [datetime] NOT NULL CONSTRAINT
[DF_Client_LastUpdate] DEFAULT (6 / 6 / 2007), - the date this row was last
updated. Useful for internal reasons

	 

	Submission has the following fields

	 

	            [SubmissionID] [int] IDENTITY (1, 1) NOT NULL , - Unique
identifier of the submission

	            [ClientID] [int] NOT NULL , - the person who is
submitting heraldry. Required

	            [HeraldID] [int] NULL , - the consulting herald

	            [Type] [varchar] (255) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NOT NULL , - the type of submission (Name,
Device, Badge)

	            [Notes] [varchar] (2000) COLLATE
SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS NULL , - a notes field for information about
the submission

	            [StartDate] [datetime] NOT NULL , - the date the process
started. This is a sketchy date, but basically it's when the client got
serious about wanting to register his heraldry. Required

	            [KSubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
submitted to Kingdom

	            [ILOIPubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry
was published in the ILOI

	            [KRetDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
returned by Kingdom for more work

	            [KPassDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry
passed Kingdom

	            [LOARPubDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry
was published in the LOAR

	            [LRetDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry was
returned by Laurel

	            [LPassDate] [datetime] NULL , - the date the heraldry
was passed by Laurel (in other words, it was registered)

	            [LastUpdate] [datetime] NOT NULL CONSTRAINT
[DF_Submission_LastUpdate] DEFAULT (6 / 6 / 2007), - the date this row was
last updated

	 

	From a technical side, the computer can look at the dates of Start,
KSub, ILOI, et al and see what the latest date is. That's the stage the
heraldry is in. From that information, we can make lists of who has what
where and keep on top of them.

	 

	So does this look good? Are we missing anything? Are there any
superfluous fields?

	 

	- Quentin Silver Yale

	 

	 

	
________________________________


	_______________________________________________
	Collegeofheralds mailing list
	Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
	
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
	  





From damozel at shaw.ca  Fri Jun  8 23:07:14 2007
From: damozel at shaw.ca (Laura Offley)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 23:07:14 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
In-Reply-To: <007801c7aa3f$6a28aa60$6800a8c0@laptop>
References: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<46684605.1080701@shaw.ca> <007801c7aa3f$6a28aa60$6800a8c0@laptop>
Message-ID: <466A4392.3090309@shaw.ca>

Quentin Martel wrote:
> Ongoing committee: There's an interesting name the Standing Ceremonial Committee
>   
Great name. I like it. Their Highnesses may have an idea which people 
(not names, rather positions) They would like to have on the committee. 
I would think that once the overall idea of the committee gets approval, 
then you could put out a call for volunteers as well . . . .

I would be wary of the term court patrons. It suggests assumptions of 
position. I prefer the term court audience. Historically, the term would 
have been courtiers, which I would prefer to use, but again it has a 
different usage in the SCA to refer to Baronial Courtiers (non-combat 
Sergeants, Yeomen & Gallants).

Yolande



From cocinera at shaw.ca  Sat Jun  9 18:49:34 2007
From: cocinera at shaw.ca (Rosemary Underhill)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 18:49:34 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion
In-Reply-To: <002201c7a7c7$acf0ef30$6800a8c0@laptop>
Message-ID: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFKEEKDMAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>

Greetings everyone


-----Original Message-----
Sent: June 5, 2007 4:17 PM
To: 'Tir Righ Heralds'
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Lily discussion


Are there particular flowers that can incorporate the storm motif?

- QSY

In response to Quentin' s  question I have been looking for a European
flower with a name related to Storm, but with the exception of the already
mentioned Snow Gentian, I haven't had much success. However,  Snow Gentian
is a flower listed as such in more modern botanicals, a more modern hybrid,
Given that, if we call the award Snow Gentian (or Storm Gentian for that
matter) it would still be heraldically blazoned as just gentian in the badge
and its colour perhaps can define it.  Using that as a starting point I
don't see why we can't pick any European alpine flower and give a storm
related name

Theocharista Red Flame

No virus found in this outgoing message.
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2:21 PM




From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 00:05:39 2007
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Britt)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:05:39 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <232740310706100005u3b817f2bi8cf7f22d4b6abac7@mail.gmail.com>

l'Etoile d'Argent, Argent Estoile, Silver Estoile, or any correct
French variant, are all clear from conflict.

- Teceangl



From cocinera at shaw.ca  Sun Jun 10 17:05:33 2007
From: cocinera at shaw.ca (Rosemary Underhill)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:05:33 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <232740310706100005u3b817f2bi8cf7f22d4b6abac7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFOEFADMAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>

Hi all:

Well l'Etoile d'Argent is so close to what we wanted originally that it
seems like a very usable solution  What think you.    Thanks tecangl.

Theocharista

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org]On Behalf Of Britt
Sent: June 10, 2007 12:06 AM
To: Quentin Martel
Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming


l'Etoile d'Argent, Argent Estoile, Silver Estoile, or any correct
French variant, are all clear from conflict.

- Teceangl

_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/843 - Release Date: 10/06/2007
1:39 PM

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/843 - Release Date: 10/06/2007
1:39 PM




From jharcus at prcn.org  Sun Jun 10 22:17:48 2007
From: jharcus at prcn.org (Judy Harcus)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:17:48 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <232740310706100005u3b817f2bi8cf7f22d4b6abac7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com>	<auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>	<232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<232740310706100005u3b817f2bi8cf7f22d4b6abac7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <466CDAFC.8000301@prcn.org>

Britt wrote:

>l'Etoile d'Argent, Argent Estoile, Silver Estoile, or any correct
>French variant, are all clear from conflict.
>
>- Teceangl
>
>  
>
 From the July 2007 Laurel Letter (returns):
Tir R?gh, Principality of. Order name L'ordre de l'Etoile Argente.

    This order name conflicts with the Order of the Argent Estoille of
    Trimaris, registered to the kingdom of Trimaris in October, 1991.
    Both names contain descriptive elements nearly identical in sound
    and appearance and identical in meaning (Silver Star). RFS 2.b.i and
    2.b.ii. say that two non-personal names with the same number of
    descriptive elements conflict unless i) "each of them contains a
    descriptive element significantly different from every descriptive
    element in the other", or ii) "either the order of the elements or
    the grammatical structure of the name has changed in a way that
    significantly changes the meaning of the name as a whole." In this
    case, the descriptive elements are identical, and the change in the
    order of the elements does not significantly change the meaning of
    the name as a whole. The kingdom name in the one order name is
    transparent for purposes of conflict. We would drop the descriptive
    element Argente, but the order name would then conflict with Estoile
    Pursuivant, registered to the kingdom of the West in January 1982
    and Order of the Estoile, registered to the Barony of Winter's Gate
    in December 1984. We note that l'Ordre de l'Etoile Argente (note
    that this suggestion corrects the capitalization from the submitted
    form) would be registerable if the principality of Tir R?gh obtained
    a letter of permission to conflict from the Kingdom of Trimaris.

So I question whether at least the first two are really clear.  (Also, 
is "l'Etoile d'Argent" proper grammer?  My french is pretty rusty but 
doesn't the translate as "the Star of White" with "of" being in the 
sense of "from"? )

Alicia

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From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 22:40:18 2007
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Britt)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:40:18 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <466CDAFC.8000301@prcn.org>
References: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<232740310706100005u3b817f2bi8cf7f22d4b6abac7@mail.gmail.com>
	<466CDAFC.8000301@prcn.org>
Message-ID: <232740310706102240x3a1af391uae8be277c5a97626@mail.gmail.com>

>  From the July 2007 Laurel Letter (returns):

Umm, Alicia?  Which LoAR was that again?  :)

>  Tir R?gh, Principality of. Order name L'ordre de l'Etoile Argente.
>
> This order name conflicts with the Order of the Argent Estoille of Trimaris,
> registered to the kingdom of Trimaris in October, 1991. Both names contain
> descriptive elements nearly identical in sound and appearance and identical
> in meaning (Silver Star). RFS 2.b.i and 2.b.ii. say that two non-personal
> names with the same number of descriptive elements conflict unless i) "each
> of them contains a descriptive element significantly different from every
> descriptive element in the other", or ii) "either the order of the elements
> or the grammatical structure of the name has changed in a way that
> significantly changes the meaning of the name as a whole." In this case, the
> descriptive elements are identical, and the change in the order of the
> elements does not significantly change the meaning of the name as a whole.
> The kingdom name in the one order name is transparent for purposes of
> conflict. We would drop the descriptive element Argente, but the order name
> would then conflict with Estoile Pursuivant, registered to the kingdom of
> the West in January 1982 and Order of the Estoile, registered to the Barony
> of Winter's Gate in December 1984. We note that l'Ordre de l'Etoile Argente
> (note that this suggestion corrects the capitalization from the submitted
> form) would be registerable if the principality of Tir R?gh obtained a
> letter of permission to conflict from the Kingdom of Trimaris.

Blinking heck.  Everyone, and I mean _everyone_ was all about no
conflict because of change of elements as per RfS V.2.b.ii. and nobody
remembered this ruling.

You're totally right, Alicia.  I was dead wrong on Argent Estoile, and
this ruling kills the French version.
Silver Estoile is still clear, though.

Want I should hassle Trimaris for permission to conflict?  Well, not
'hassle'...  Bribe with whiskey cake?

- Teceangl



From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Mon Jun 11 17:46:50 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:46:50 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <232740310706102240x3a1af391uae8be277c5a97626@mail.gmail.com>
References: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com><auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com><232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com><232740310706100005u3b817f2bi8cf7f22d4b6abac7@mail.gmail.com><466CDAFC.8000301@prcn.org>
	<232740310706102240x3a1af391uae8be277c5a97626@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007001c7ac8b$3e99ffe0$6800a8c0@laptop>


Thank you Teceangl!

Lets hold off contacting Trimaris until we determine what we really want.

- Quentin Silver Yale

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Britt
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 10:40 PM
To: Judy Harcus
Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming

>  From the July 2007 Laurel Letter (returns):

Umm, Alicia?  Which LoAR was that again?  :)

>  Tir R?gh, Principality of. Order name L'ordre de l'Etoile Argente.
>
> This order name conflicts with the Order of the Argent Estoille of
Trimaris,
> registered to the kingdom of Trimaris in October, 1991. Both names contain
> descriptive elements nearly identical in sound and appearance and
identical
> in meaning (Silver Star). RFS 2.b.i and 2.b.ii. say that two non-personal
> names with the same number of descriptive elements conflict unless i)
"each
> of them contains a descriptive element significantly different from every
> descriptive element in the other", or ii) "either the order of the
elements
> or the grammatical structure of the name has changed in a way that
> significantly changes the meaning of the name as a whole." In this case,
the
> descriptive elements are identical, and the change in the order of the
> elements does not significantly change the meaning of the name as a whole.
> The kingdom name in the one order name is transparent for purposes of
> conflict. We would drop the descriptive element Argente, but the order
name
> would then conflict with Estoile Pursuivant, registered to the kingdom of
> the West in January 1982 and Order of the Estoile, registered to the
Barony
> of Winter's Gate in December 1984. We note that l'Ordre de l'Etoile
Argente
> (note that this suggestion corrects the capitalization from the submitted
> form) would be registerable if the principality of Tir R?gh obtained a
> letter of permission to conflict from the Kingdom of Trimaris.

Blinking heck.  Everyone, and I mean _everyone_ was all about no
conflict because of change of elements as per RfS V.2.b.ii. and nobody
remembered this ruling.

You're totally right, Alicia.  I was dead wrong on Argent Estoile, and
this ruling kills the French version.
Silver Estoile is still clear, though.

Want I should hassle Trimaris for permission to conflict?  Well, not
'hassle'...  Bribe with whiskey cake?

- Teceangl

_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org




From uilliam at shaw.ca  Mon Jun 11 20:33:41 2007
From: uilliam at shaw.ca (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uilliam_mac_Ail=E9ne_mhic_Seamuis?=)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 20:33:41 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <466CDAFC.8000301@prcn.org>
References: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<232740310706100005u3b817f2bi8cf7f22d4b6abac7@mail.gmail.com>
	<466CDAFC.8000301@prcn.org>
Message-ID: <466E1415.2080301@shaw.ca>

Judy Harcus wrote:
> Britt wrote:
>> l'Etoile d'Argent, Argent Estoile, Silver Estoile, or any correct
>> French variant, are all clear from conflict.
>>
>> - Teceangl
>>
>>   
>  >From the July 2007 Laurel Letter (returns):
> *Tir R?gh, Principality of. * Order name L'ordre de l'Etoile Argente.
> 
>     This order name conflicts with the /Order of the Argent Estoille of
>     Trimaris/, registered to the kingdom of Trimaris in October, 1991.
>     Both names contain descriptive elements nearly identical in sound
>     and appearance and identical in meaning (Silver Star). RFS 2.b.i and
>     2.b.ii. say that two non-personal names with the same number of
>     descriptive elements conflict unless i) "each of them contains a
>     descriptive element significantly different from every descriptive
>     element in the other", or ii) "either the order of the elements or
>     the grammatical structure of the name has changed in a way that
>     significantly changes the meaning of the name as a whole." In this
>     case, the descriptive elements are identical, and the change in the
>     order of the elements does not significantly change the meaning of
>     the name as a whole. The kingdom name in the one order name is
>     transparent for purposes of conflict. We would drop the descriptive
>     element /Argente/, but the order name would then conflict with
>     /Estoile Pursuivant/, registered to the kingdom of the West in
>     January 1982 and /Order of the Estoile/, registered to the /Barony
>     of Winter's Gate/ in December 1984. We note that /l'Ordre de
>     l'Etoile Argente/ (note that this suggestion corrects the
>     capitalization from the submitted form) would be registerable if the
>     principality of Tir R?gh obtained a letter of permission to conflict
>     from the Kingdom of Trimaris.
> 
> So I question whether at least the first two are really clear.  (Also, 
> is "l'Etoile d'Argent" proper grammer?  My french is pretty rusty but 
> doesn't the translate as "the Star of White" with "of" being in the 
> sense of "from"? )
> 
> Alicia

Re: Grammar

Yes, this is correct construction. The "d'" construction does not always 
mean "from a location". The phrase "eau de vie" means "water of life", 
not "water from life". Also it's not "Star of White"; it's "Star of 
Silver". Heraldicly white does not exist; it's used to represent the 
metal, just as yellow represents the metal gold.

Your point about the conflict is well-taken. Perhaps it would be 
simplest to write Trimaris asking for permission to conflict? I mean, 
what are the odds someone's going to get both, or that both will wind up 
being in sufficiently close proximity as to confuse a herald?

Yours aye,
Uilliam TNNFATCDH
-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/




From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 03:01:39 2007
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Britt)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 03:01:39 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <466E1415.2080301@shaw.ca>
References: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<232740310706100005u3b817f2bi8cf7f22d4b6abac7@mail.gmail.com>
	<466CDAFC.8000301@prcn.org> <466E1415.2080301@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <232740310706120301h6ac30766l1d25064e4e0b4ac9@mail.gmail.com>

> Your point about the conflict is well-taken. Perhaps it would be
> simplest to write Trimaris asking for permission to conflict? I mean,
> what are the odds someone's going to get both, or that both will wind up
> being in sufficiently close proximity as to confuse a herald?

If they do get one of each, they can wear the tokens as earrings.  :)

Master Sion ap Llwyd had two Goutte de Sangs.  Court herald mistake.
So he put them both on the same necklace and wore them proudly, and
when he was made Pelican framed his pelican badge with the two GdS
medallions.  We could never talk him into earrings, but we tried. :)

Seriously, We have a Corounne Rouge herald in An Tir and there's an
order of the Cordon Rouge someplace and any confusion is handled with
grace.  We're the SCA, we're polite, right?

- Teceangl



From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Tue Jun 12 21:01:07 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:01:07 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming
In-Reply-To: <466E1415.2080301@shaw.ca>
References: <232740310706022341l20277c6eq2bb4f4bc1a281c44@mail.gmail.com><auto-000156720029@fe2.admin2.cablespeed.com><232740310706030015j148f4291g4948bbde37dbe0f6@mail.gmail.com><232740310706100005u3b817f2bi8cf7f22d4b6abac7@mail.gmail.com><466CDAFC.8000301@prcn.org>
	<466E1415.2080301@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <005301c7ad6f$8b0f7690$6800a8c0@laptop>


Staying in conflict -

Pros:
1. We don't have to change our award name.

2. We're a long, long way from Trimaris. There are exactly 9 people living
in An Tir who hold Trimarian awards. Listed below for trivia buffs
Abigail MacLachlan the Mad - Wealdsmere
Dafydd ap Emrys - Blatha An Oir
Duncan Angus Macdonald - Aquaterra
Jhone MacLachlan - Wealdsmere
Katerina Isabella di Firenze - Dragon's Mist
Lorcan ab Arthur - Dragon's Mist
Mary Shandril Fergueson Germain - Blatha An Oir
Shalimariah Galistene - Dragon's Laire
Thamzine of the North Sea - Blatha An Oir

3. It's pretty easy to ask

Cons:
1. We won't have our own unique award name

2. The idea of registering is that we have unique names

3. We're not really committed to the current name at this point. Tir Righ
would accept a change especially in light of direct conflict.



Am I missing any pros or cons? Please let me know. That's largely what this
list is all about - getting the real information in front of us so decisions
can be made quickly and properly.

- Quentin Silver Yale



-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Uilliam mac
Ail?ne mhic Seamuis
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 8:34 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming

Judy Harcus wrote:
> Britt wrote:
>> l'Etoile d'Argent, Argent Estoile, Silver Estoile, or any correct
>> French variant, are all clear from conflict.
>>
>> - Teceangl
>>
>>   
>  >From the July 2007 Laurel Letter (returns):
> *Tir R?gh, Principality of. * Order name L'ordre de l'Etoile Argente.
> 
>     This order name conflicts with the /Order of the Argent Estoille of
>     Trimaris/, registered to the kingdom of Trimaris in October, 1991.
>     Both names contain descriptive elements nearly identical in sound
>     and appearance and identical in meaning (Silver Star). RFS 2.b.i and
>     2.b.ii. say that two non-personal names with the same number of
>     descriptive elements conflict unless i) "each of them contains a
>     descriptive element significantly different from every descriptive
>     element in the other", or ii) "either the order of the elements or
>     the grammatical structure of the name has changed in a way that
>     significantly changes the meaning of the name as a whole." In this
>     case, the descriptive elements are identical, and the change in the
>     order of the elements does not significantly change the meaning of
>     the name as a whole. The kingdom name in the one order name is
>     transparent for purposes of conflict. We would drop the descriptive
>     element /Argente/, but the order name would then conflict with
>     /Estoile Pursuivant/, registered to the kingdom of the West in
>     January 1982 and /Order of the Estoile/, registered to the /Barony
>     of Winter's Gate/ in December 1984. We note that /l'Ordre de
>     l'Etoile Argente/ (note that this suggestion corrects the
>     capitalization from the submitted form) would be registerable if the
>     principality of Tir R?gh obtained a letter of permission to conflict
>     from the Kingdom of Trimaris.
> 
> So I question whether at least the first two are really clear.  (Also, 
> is "l'Etoile d'Argent" proper grammer?  My french is pretty rusty but 
> doesn't the translate as "the Star of White" with "of" being in the 
> sense of "from"? )
> 
> Alicia

Re: Grammar

Yes, this is correct construction. The "d'" construction does not always 
mean "from a location". The phrase "eau de vie" means "water of life", 
not "water from life". Also it's not "Star of White"; it's "Star of 
Silver". Heraldicly white does not exist; it's used to represent the 
metal, just as yellow represents the metal gold.

Your point about the conflict is well-taken. Perhaps it would be 
simplest to write Trimaris asking for permission to conflict? I mean, 
what are the odds someone's going to get both, or that both will wind up 
being in sufficiently close proximity as to confuse a herald?

Yours aye,
Uilliam TNNFATCDH
-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/


_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org




From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Tue Jun 12 21:01:07 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 21:01:07 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Proposed charter for the Standing Ceremonial
	Committee
Message-ID: <005501c7ad6f$949d9980$6800a8c0@laptop>

Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds!

 

Having received very positive response to having a standing ceremonial
committee from everyone that I've talked to ranging from the Coronet to the
College and on, I've written up a charter for the committee. This outlines
the things we have talked about with the committee and defines certain
details of how it's made and by whom, what the duties of the committee will
be and so on.

 

Please read and comment!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

 

 

 

Charter of the Standing Ceremonial Committee of the Principality of Tir Righ
College of Heralds

 

The Standing Ceremonial Committee ("the Committee") is a permanent committee
of the Principality of Tir Righ ("Tir Righ") College of Heralds and reports
to the Coronet of Tir Righ ("the Coronet"). Through this Charter, the
Coronet delegates certain responsibilities to the Committee to assist the
Coronet in the formulating, disseminating, and approving the ceremonies that
can be used in Tir Righ.

 

The Committee shall consist of five members. Those members shall be the
Silver Yale Principal Herald of Tir Righ ("Silver Yale"), the Tir Righ Court
Herald, and 3 At Large members. Each member shall be nominated by Silver
Yale and confirmed by the Coronet. It is recommended that the Committee
should work to be composed of members of both genders, those members have
strong knowledge and experience in SCA ceremonies, and they represent a
variety of viewpoints and experiences such as serving as the Crown or
Coronet, herald, retinue, audience, and so on.

 

Should there be no Tir Righ Court Herald or Silver Yale is acting in that
capacity, Silver Yale shall nominate another member of the Tir Righ College
of Heralds to serve on the Committee.

 

Should there be a committee member serving in the position that would be
held by the Tir Righ Court Herald and a new herald is appointed to that
position, the committee member shall be replaced by the new Tir Righ Court
Herald.

 

Silver Yale shall chair the committee and is confirmed onto the Committee
automatically upon taking the oath of the office of Silver Yale.

 

Each At Large member shall be appointed to a two year term, subject to
removal at any time by the Coronet. Silver Yale and the Tir Righ Court
Herald shall serve from the beginning of his or her term in that position
until the conclusion of his or her term in that position.

 

Procedures

The Committee shall hold meetings as required to fulfill the duties of the
Committee. Meetings may be called by the Chair of the Committee or any two
members of the Committee. 

 

Meetings may be held either in person or via phone, e-mail, video
conferencing or any other reasonable method of communication. Meetings may
be held at events but it is not required to do so.

 

The presence of three members of the Committee shall constitute a quorum. 

 

To the extent practicable, the meeting agenda and minutes from the prior
meeting shall be provided to members of the Committee prior to each meeting
to allow time for review. 

 

The Committee shall have authority to create and delegate specific tasks to
such standing or ad hoc subcommittees as it may determine to be necessary or
appropriate for the discharge of its responsibilities. The results of the
meetings shall be reported to the Coronet and the Curia.

 

Purposes

The Committee shall have direct responsibility to: 

 

Review any change to the Tir Righ Ceremonial ("the Ceremonial"). No change
shall be made to the Ceremonial without the approval of the Committee.
Should the Committee give approval to a change to the Ceremonial, that
recommendation will be sent to the Coronet for approval. Should the Coronet
approve of the change, the Ceremonial shall be updated with the new change.

 

In order to recommend a ceremony to the Coronet, the positive vote of three
Committee members is required.

 

Responsibilities

To carry out these purposes, the Committee shall have the responsibilities
set forth below. 

 

The Committee shall conduct a periodic review of the Ceremonial. The
Committee shall have the authority to accept recommendations of changes to
the Ceremonial from third parties, delegate writing of ceremonies to third
parties, or write changes to the Ceremonial itself.

 

The Committee shall conduct a periodic review of Ceremonials of other
Principalities and of the An Tir Ceremonial and Ceremonials of the other
Laurel Kingdoms of the Known World.

 

The Committee shall publish a set of guidelines for all Tir Righ ceremonies.

 

The Committee shall make an annual report to be included in the Tir Righ
College of Heralds annual Doomsday report.

 

The Committee shall publish the current Ceremonial on the Tir Righ website
and make announcements of changes in the Tir Righ newsletter.

 

The Committee shall present the current ceremonial to each incoming Coronet.

 

The Committee shall perform such other functions as the Coronet may from
time to time assign to the Committee.

 

Authority

The Committee shall be given the resources and assistance necessary to
discharge its responsibilities. The Committee shall also have the authority
to engage outside advisers as it deems necessary or appropriate.

 

Authority denied to the Committee

The Committee does not have the authority to see to it that the Ceremonial
is used by the Coronet. The Coronet is always free to use different
ceremonies as suits the Coronet's needs.

 

Charter Review

The Committee shall review this Charter periodically for adequacy and
recommend to the Coronet any necessary changes. 

 

Annual Performance Review

The Committee shall conduct an annual evaluation of its performance in
carrying out its responsibilities hereunder.

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Fri Jun 15 16:23:17 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:23:17 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Second draft of the Standing Ceremonial Committee
	Charter
Message-ID: <000f01c7afa4$2a027550$6800a8c0@laptop>

 

I've received some great feedback on the Standing Ceremonial Committee. I've
made three changes to the charter.

 

1.	One of the At Large members will start with a 1 year term so we can
stagger the terms of the people on the committee
2.	Added a requirement that the committee meet at least once a year
3.	Added the affirmation that the Coronet can directly change the
ceremonial without the committee's consent if They so choose.

 

The new draft is included below. If there are no further comments on this
within 1 week, I'll present it to the Coronet and enact the committee.

 

Thank you all!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

 

Charter of the Standing Ceremonial Committee of the Principality of Tir Righ
College of Heralds

 

The Standing Ceremonial Committee ("the Committee") is a permanent committee
of the Principality of Tir Righ ("Tir Righ") College of Heralds and reports
to the Coronet of Tir Righ. Through this Charter, the Coronet delegates
certain responsibilities to the Committee to assist the Coronet in the
formulating, disseminating, and approving the ceremonies that can be used in
Tir Righ.

 

The Committee shall consist of five members. Those members shall be the
Silver Yale Principal Herald of Tir Righ ("Silver Yale"), the Tir Righ Court
Herald, and 3 At Large members. Each member shall be nominated by Silver
Yale and confirmed by the Coronet. It is recommended that the Committee
should work to be composed of members of both genders, those members have
strong knowledge and experience in SCA ceremonies, and they represent a
variety of viewpoints and experiences such as serving as the Crown or
Coronet, herald, retinue, audience, and so on.

 

Should there be no Tir Righ Court Herald or Silver Yale is acting in that
capacity, Silver Yale shall nominate another member of the Tir Righ College
of Heralds to serve on the Committee.

 

Should there be a committee member serving in the position that would be
held by the Tir Righ Court Herald and a new herald is appointed to that
position, the committee member shall be replaced by the new Tir Righ Court
Herald.

 

Silver Yale shall chair the committee and is confirmed onto the Committee
automatically upon taking the oath of the office of Silver Yale.

 

Each At Large member shall be appointed to a two year term, subject to
removal at any time by the Coronet. Silver Yale and the Tir Righ Court
Herald shall serve from the beginning of his or her term in that position
until the conclusion of his or her term in that position. Upon inception of
the Committee, one of the 3 At Large terms shall be one year in order to
stagger the times that terms expire.

 

Procedures

The Committee shall hold meetings as required to fulfill the duties of the
Committee. Meetings may be called by the Chair of the Committee or any two
members of the Committee. The Committee must meet at least once per year.

 

Meetings may be held either in person or via phone, e-mail, video
conferencing or any other reasonable method of communication. Meetings may
be held at events but it is not required to do so.

 

The presence of three members of the Committee shall constitute a quorum. 

 

To the extent practicable, the meeting agenda and minutes from the prior
meeting shall be provided to members of the Committee prior to each meeting
to allow time for review. 

 

The Committee shall have authority to create and delegate specific tasks to
such standing or ad hoc subcommittees as it may determine to be necessary or
appropriate for the discharge of its responsibilities. The results of the
meetings shall be reported to the Coronet and the Curia.

 

Purposes

The Committee shall have direct responsibility to: 

 

Review any change to the Tir Righ Ceremonial ("the Ceremonial"). No change
shall be made to the Ceremonial without the approval of the Committee, save
by the Coronet. Should the Committee give approval to a change to the
Ceremonial, that recommendation will be sent to the Coronet for approval.
Should the Coronet approve of the change, the Ceremonial shall be updated
with the new change.

 

In order to recommend a ceremony to the Coronet, the positive vote of three
Committee members is required.

 

Responsibilities

To carry out these purposes, the Committee shall have the responsibilities
set forth below. 

 

The Committee shall conduct a periodic review of the Ceremonial. The
Committee shall have the authority to accept recommendations of changes to
the Ceremonial from third parties, delegate writing of ceremonies to third
parties, or write changes to the Ceremonial itself.

 

The Committee shall conduct a periodic review of Ceremonials of other
Principalities and of the An Tir Ceremonial and Ceremonials of the other
Laurel Kingdoms of the Known World.

 

The Committee shall publish a set of guidelines for all Tir Righ ceremonies.

 

The Committee shall make an annual report to be included in the Tir Righ
College of Heralds annual Doomsday report.

 

The Committee shall publish the current Ceremonial on the Tir Righ website
and make announcements of changes in the Tir Righ newsletter. The Committee
shall present the current ceremonial to each incoming Coronet.

 

The Committee shall perform such other functions as the Coronet may from
time to time assign to the Committee.

 

Authority

The Committee shall be given the resources and assistance necessary to
discharge its responsibilities. The Committee shall also have the authority
to engage outside advisers as it deems necessary or appropriate.

 

Authority denied to the Committee

The Committee does not have the authority to see to it that the Ceremonial
is used by the Coronet. The Coronet is always free to use different
ceremonies as suits the Coronet's needs. The Coronet can directly make
changes to the Ceremonial without the consent of the Committee.

 

Charter Review

The Committee shall review this Charter periodically for adequacy and
recommend to the Coronet any necessary changes. 

 

Annual Performance Review

The Committee shall conduct an annual evaluation of its performance in
carrying out its responsibilities hereunder.

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Wed Jun 20 19:36:30 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:36:30 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client tracking database update
Message-ID: <011401c7b3ad$074f7370$6900a8c0@laptop>

 

Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds!

 

This is a quick update on the client tracking database:

 

 

Launch project - Done!

Determine data to store in database - Done!

Design tables - Done!

Build database on Tir Righ site - Done!

Create database user - Done!

Grant proper privileges to database user - Done!

Create add client and add submission functions - Done!

Create edit client and edit submission functions - Done!

Create delete client and delete submission functions - Done!

Create get client and get submission functions - Done!

Create support functions - Done!

Create add client pages - Done!

Create edit client pages - Done!

Create delete client pages - Done!

Create add submission pages - Done!

Create edit submission pages - Done!

Create delete submission pages - Done!

Create report page - In progress

Secure data input pages

 

The bottom line is that we have a working system for adding and editing the
heralds and clients in the system and creating submissions and editing them
right now. We're probably about a week from a fully working system.

 

Once we have that, we're going to be using this system to distribute the
load of clients among the various heralds of Tir Righ, seeing to it that we
proactively are contacting our clients, and cross referencing their
submissions with the Kingdom and Society returns. The goal is to make Tir
Righ a shining example of what a College of Heralds should provide for our
clients - meaningful and consistent communication about the registration
process.

 

I'm excited!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale 

 

 

 

 

 

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From cocinera at shaw.ca  Wed Jun 20 20:37:14 2007
From: cocinera at shaw.ca (Rosemary Underhill)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:37:14 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client tracking database update
In-Reply-To: <011401c7b3ad$074f7370$6900a8c0@laptop>
Message-ID: <JNEPIIBCINFIPMCKHIMFAEMCDMAA.cocinera@shaw.ca>

That is just fantastic.  Now I can't wait to have it running.

Thanks so much for this.

Theocharista Red Flame


  -----Original Message-----
  From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org]On Behalf Of Quentin Martel
  Sent: June 20, 2007 7:37 PM
  To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
  Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client tracking database update




  Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds!



  This is a quick update on the client tracking database:





  Launch project - Done!

  Determine data to store in database - Done!

  Design tables - Done!

  Build database on Tir Righ site - Done!

  Create database user - Done!

  Grant proper privileges to database user - Done!

  Create add client and add submission functions - Done!

  Create edit client and edit submission functions - Done!

  Create delete client and delete submission functions - Done!

  Create get client and get submission functions - Done!

  Create support functions - Done!

  Create add client pages - Done!

  Create edit client pages - Done!

  Create delete client pages - Done!

  Create add submission pages - Done!

  Create edit submission pages - Done!

  Create delete submission pages - Done!

  Create report page ? In progress

  Secure data input pages



  The bottom line is that we have a working system for adding and editing
the heralds and clients in the system and creating submissions and editing
them right now. We?re probably about a week from a fully working system.



  Once we have that, we?re going to be using this system to distribute the
load of clients among the various heralds of Tir Righ, seeing to it that we
proactively are contacting our clients, and cross referencing their
submissions with the Kingdom and Society returns. The goal is to make Tir
Righ a shining example of what a College of Heralds should provide for our
clients ? meaningful and consistent communication about the registration
process.



  I?m excited!



  - Quentin Silver Yale











No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.1/857 - Release Date: 20/06/2007
2:18 PM

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From uilliam at shaw.ca  Thu Jun 21 23:53:54 2007
From: uilliam at shaw.ca (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uilliam_mac_Ail=E9ne_mhic_Seamuis?=)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 23:53:54 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
In-Reply-To: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
References: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <467B7202.8000307@shaw.ca>

Quentin the Chief Heraldic Dude of the Great White North wrote:
> Greetings unto the College of Heralds of Tir Righ from Quentin Silver Yale!
> 
> One of our duties as a College of Heralds is to provide the Coronet with 
> a ceremonial.

Greetings, Quentin SYH and all the other heralds of this college.

Some opinions regarding the Ceremonial, and mainly to do with formatting:

1. Minimum type size should be 16pt, maybe even 18pt. This makes it 
easier to read from in court without being obvious. Lots of us whose 
eyesight is less than optimum.

2. Should be printed in a non-serif font, such as one of the Arial or 
Helvetica families. Serifs are harder to read when held at a distance.

3. Each ceremony should start on a left-hand page, this will greatly 
reduce the requirements for page-turning during ceremonies. Lots of 
ceremonies that are 1-and-some pages long at the moment.

4. Ensure a clear and consistent use of such things as italics, bolding 
and underline. For instance, if it is established in one ceremony that 
boldface is used to indicate who is speaking (i.e., *HERALD*, *PRINCE*, 
etc.), then don't use italics for that same indication in a different 
ceremony.

5. Avoid footnotes. These are not scholarly documents; these are 
scripts. If a note needs to be made, insert it at the required point in 
the text, marked off by whatever is the agreed-upon form, whether it be 
italics, enclosed in a box or what-have-you.

6. The sections on court liason, how to do court and the historical 
ceremonies are valuable, but they do not need to be in the main part of 
the document. They should be included as appendices.

I */strongly/* recommend that the official copy have its pages in page 
protectors. This will help reduce liquid damage, whether it be rain or a 
cup of cheer. It will also make it easier for the herald to 
Crayon/dry-marker/China pencil in stuff in blank spots such as 
"___recipient___". You may scoff, but I've seen it happen - the herald 
gets into a zone, and actually says "recipient" during the ceremony.

I also note there's a number of ceremonies missing. Some are marked 
"This ceremony under development" or the equivalent, others are dealt 
with simply as a paragraph or two about the award or whatever it is. 
Some aren't there at all, but should be - i.e., herald baptism ceremony. 
We need to see what's in the An Tir Ceremonial that we may want to stea- 
er, adapt.

Tired now. Must go sleepies.

Yours aye,
Uilliam TNNFATCDHOTR

-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/



From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Fri Jun 22 17:15:14 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:15:14 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Standing Ceremonial Committee update
Message-ID: <025d01c7b52b$a0966320$6900a8c0@laptop>

 

The charter for the committee has been sent to the Coronet and awaits Their
approval or alterations. Once we have that approval, I'll form the committee
and we can get to work!

 

Thank you all for your feedback on it!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

 

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From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Fri Jun 22 17:15:14 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:15:14 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Testers needed for the Client tracking system
Message-ID: <027101c7b52b$abee4990$6900a8c0@laptop>

 

We need volunteers to test the system, put it through its paces, and report
back what you see. If you'd like to help the College in this capacity,
please let me know!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

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From mhood at shaw.ca  Fri Jun 22 18:21:51 2007
From: mhood at shaw.ca (mark hood)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:21:51 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
In-Reply-To: <467B7202.8000307@shaw.ca>
References: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<467B7202.8000307@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <002701c7b534$e0e74c10$a2b5e430$@ca>

Okay... "TNNFATCDHOTR".  Is that "The Not Named Field And Town Crier Deputy
Herald Of Tir Righ"?

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Uilliam mac
Ail?ne mhic Seamuis
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:54 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process

Quentin the Chief Heraldic Dude of the Great White North wrote:
> Greetings unto the College of Heralds of Tir Righ from Quentin Silver
Yale!
> 
> One of our duties as a College of Heralds is to provide the Coronet with 
> a ceremonial.

Greetings, Quentin SYH and all the other heralds of this college.

Some opinions regarding the Ceremonial, and mainly to do with formatting:

1. Minimum type size should be 16pt, maybe even 18pt. This makes it 
easier to read from in court without being obvious. Lots of us whose 
eyesight is less than optimum.

2. Should be printed in a non-serif font, such as one of the Arial or 
Helvetica families. Serifs are harder to read when held at a distance.

3. Each ceremony should start on a left-hand page, this will greatly 
reduce the requirements for page-turning during ceremonies. Lots of 
ceremonies that are 1-and-some pages long at the moment.

4. Ensure a clear and consistent use of such things as italics, bolding 
and underline. For instance, if it is established in one ceremony that 
boldface is used to indicate who is speaking (i.e., *HERALD*, *PRINCE*, 
etc.), then don't use italics for that same indication in a different 
ceremony.

5. Avoid footnotes. These are not scholarly documents; these are 
scripts. If a note needs to be made, insert it at the required point in 
the text, marked off by whatever is the agreed-upon form, whether it be 
italics, enclosed in a box or what-have-you.

6. The sections on court liason, how to do court and the historical 
ceremonies are valuable, but they do not need to be in the main part of 
the document. They should be included as appendices.

I */strongly/* recommend that the official copy have its pages in page 
protectors. This will help reduce liquid damage, whether it be rain or a 
cup of cheer. It will also make it easier for the herald to 
Crayon/dry-marker/China pencil in stuff in blank spots such as 
"___recipient___". You may scoff, but I've seen it happen - the herald 
gets into a zone, and actually says "recipient" during the ceremony.

I also note there's a number of ceremonies missing. Some are marked 
"This ceremony under development" or the equivalent, others are dealt 
with simply as a paragraph or two about the award or whatever it is. 
Some aren't there at all, but should be - i.e., herald baptism ceremony. 
We need to see what's in the An Tir Ceremonial that we may want to stea- 
er, adapt.

Tired now. Must go sleepies.

Yours aye,
Uilliam TNNFATCDHOTR

-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/

_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org




From Caitrina at shaw.ca  Sat Jun 23 11:01:52 2007
From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina Sable Loat)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:01:52 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] name help - Gwynaeth of Glyn Dwr
Message-ID: <001901c7b5c0$95c459d0$c14d0d70$@ca>

Greetings,

 

I've been attempting to help a lady with her desired name of Gwynaeth of
Glyn Dwr.  The help I'm requesting is if anyone out there has a resource to
document the alternate spelling of Gwynaeth.  I've found resources but the
closest is Gwyneth.  She is firm in her belief that her desired spelling is
period, however we've yet to find anything to support it.  I was hoping
someone with an extensive library or knowledge of names could help?

 

Caitrina

 

Hoping Santa will bring her a few more books for Christmas which
incidentally is only 6 months away

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From uilliam at shaw.ca  Sun Jun 24 16:31:51 2007
From: uilliam at shaw.ca (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uilliam_mac_Ail=E9ne_mhic_Seamuis?=)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:31:51 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ceremonial creation process
In-Reply-To: <002701c7b534$e0e74c10$a2b5e430$@ca>
References: <auto-000158833554@fe1.admin2.cablespeed.com>
	<467B7202.8000307@shaw.ca> <002701c7b534$e0e74c10$a2b5e430$@ca>
Message-ID: <467EFEE7.4050200@shaw.ca>

mark hood wrote:
> Okay... "TNNFATCDHOTR".  Is that "The Not Named Field And Town Crier Deputy
> Herald Of Tir Righ"?
> 

Your perspicacity is amazing and bang on the money :-D

Uilliam TNNFATCDHOTR

-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/



From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Wed Jun 27 18:58:21 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:58:21 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Client Tracking database
Message-ID: <000301c7b927$cf667550$6900a8c0@laptop>

 

Greetings unto the Tir Righ College of Heralds from Quentin Silver Yale!

 

 

I come before you all today to talk about the Tir Righ Client Tracking
system that we've been pushing towards. It is now imminent. 

 

This is a powerful tool quite unlike any you have ever worked with before in
your consulting duties. It puts together in one place the status of every
heraldic submission - where in the process it is, who is belongs to, who the
consulting herald is, and more - in one place where we and our clients can
see it clearly and easily.

 

I believe that this could represent a new day of communication, way to
balance our workloads, and bring far greater happiness for both our clients
and our College. If this works as well as I'm thinking it will, every
College of Heralds in the Known World will be copying it and using it. Is it
that good of an idea.

 

But like any distributed system, it gets more powerful as more people use
it. And more people will use it if they know what it is and how it works. So
towards that end, I'll be calling every herald in Tir Righ and talking to
you about the system - what it is, how to use it, when to use it, why to use
it, and so on.

 

Additionally, as this is a consulting tool, it falls under the bailiwick of
Theocharista Red Flame. I'll be coordinating with her on how we will
administrate the use of this tool once everyone knows what it is and how it
works.

 

Expect this call from me. Head over to
http://www.tirrigh.org/heralds/clienttracker and see what we have in place
already.

 

Thank you!

 

- Quentin Silver Yale

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From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 22:18:09 2007
From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:18:09 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] New e-mail addy
Message-ID: <46834491.5040209@gmail.com>

I thought I should post to let everyone know I have a new e-mail addy.

richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com

This is a permanent, non-isp addy, so when I switch ISPs it won't keep 
changing!

Richenda



From uilliam at shaw.ca  Thu Jun 28 20:30:14 2007
From: uilliam at shaw.ca (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uilliam_mac_Ail=E9ne_mhic_Seamuis?=)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:30:14 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Reassurances
Message-ID: <46847CC6.90101@shaw.ca>

Hullo, folks - some (most) of you will have received an email saying 
you've been unsubscribed from the Tir Righ Heralds Mailing List. This is 
from the old list that was on the antir.sca.org server, preparatory to 
that list being deleted. Everyone who was on that list was automagically 
subscribed to the new list when it was created, and now I'm winding up 
the old list.

Yours aye,
Uilliam
ex tirrigh-heralds at antir.sca.org administrator
-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/



From quentin at shittimwoode.org  Fri Jun 29 06:14:22 2007
From: quentin at shittimwoode.org (Quentin Martel)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:14:22 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Reassurances
In-Reply-To: <46847CC6.90101@shaw.ca>
References: <46847CC6.90101@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <00cb01c7ba4f$69644470$6900a8c0@laptop>


Nice work, Master Uilliam!

- QSY

-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Uilliam mac
Ail?ne mhic Seamuis
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 8:30 PM
To: Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Reassurances

Hullo, folks - some (most) of you will have received an email saying 
you've been unsubscribed from the Tir Righ Heralds Mailing List. This is 
from the old list that was on the antir.sca.org server, preparatory to 
that list being deleted. Everyone who was on that list was automagically 
subscribed to the new list when it was created, and now I'm winding up 
the old list.

Yours aye,
Uilliam
ex tirrigh-heralds at antir.sca.org administrator
-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jackytar/

_______________________________________________
Collegeofheralds mailing list
Collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org