From duncan1466 at yahoo.com  Sat May  3 15:12:21 2008
From: duncan1466 at yahoo.com (Duncan Darroch)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 15:12:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] re. Calling all Heralds
Message-ID: <328987.95354.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

>From my post on the Northern Road... I am sorry I feel I am letting the College down but my son comes first.

YIS

HL Duncan

--- On Sat, 5/3/08, Duncan Darroch <duncandarroch1466 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> <duncandarroch1466 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Duncan Darroch <duncandarroch1466 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [northern] Calling all Heralds...
> To: "NorthernRoad SCA" <northern at antir.sca.org>
> Date: Saturday, May 3, 2008, 2:52 PM
> 
> 
> Greetings Tir Righ,
>  
> I am sorry to announce that I will not be able to attend
> May Investiture as I will be partaking in my son's Grad
> ceremonies. So as such I am needing all heralds to let me
> know who is going to be in attendance so that the Autocrat
> of this event will know who he has for court and field
> heraldry.
>  
>  
> YIS
> 
> HL Duncan Darroch 
> Storm Vox
> (deputy Herald, Voice & Court Principality Tir Righ)
> 
> Personal Blazon: Argent, two compass stars in fess and on a
> point pointed ploye vert a compass star argent. 
> 
> Student to: Li Ban ingen Echtigeirn MacNessa, GdS 
> Argent, three horses in annulo sable.



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From mhood at shaw.ca  Sun May  4 08:26:39 2008
From: mhood at shaw.ca (Mark Hood)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 08:26:39 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] re. Calling all Heralds
In-Reply-To: <328987.95354.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <328987.95354.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <481DD5AF.8010909@shaw.ca>

Duncan, never apologize for letting your family come first.  They do.  
Nobody would ever doubt your dedication and service to this little hobby 
of ours.

We came to the same decision this year when it became apparent we needed 
to choose between our daughter's grad and the trip to KWHS in England.  
Not saying it wasn't a regrettable choice, but after the struggles 
through the past couple of years, her graduation is more important to us 
than anything else.

And finally, Caitrina Lions Blood and I will not be attending 
Investiture.  We had planned on it and let people know we would be 
there, but our van isn't cooperating, and that will be the only weekend 
I get to work on it.  I don't trust the trip up right now.

Uilliam,
Seneschal Lions Gate,
Once and Interim Sable Loat

Duncan Darroch wrote:
> >From my post on the Northern Road... I am sorry I feel I am letting the College down but my son comes first.
>
> YIS
>
> HL Duncan
>
> --- On Sat, 5/3/08, Duncan Darroch <duncandarroch1466 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> <duncandarroch1466 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Duncan Darroch <duncandarroch1466 at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [northern] Calling all Heralds...
>> To: "NorthernRoad SCA" <northern at antir.sca.org>
>> Date: Saturday, May 3, 2008, 2:52 PM
>>
>>
>> Greetings Tir Righ,
>>  
>> I am sorry to announce that I will not be able to attend
>> May Investiture as I will be partaking in my son's Grad
>> ceremonies. So as such I am needing all heralds to let me
>> know who is going to be in attendance so that the Autocrat
>> of this event will know who he has for court and field
>> heraldry.
>>  
>>  
>> YIS
>>
>> HL Duncan Darroch 
>> Storm Vox
>> (deputy Herald, Voice & Court Principality Tir Righ)
>>
>> Personal Blazon: Argent, two compass stars in fess and on a
>> point pointed ploye vert a compass star argent. 
>>
>> Student to: Li Ban ingen Echtigeirn MacNessa, GdS 
>> Argent, three horses in annulo sable.
>>     
>
>
>
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and 
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
> ===============================================
> Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list
> Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org
>        Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes)
> or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>
>   




From katrynka2 at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 02:47:46 2008
From: katrynka2 at yahoo.com (Katrynka Chornovoloskaya)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 02:47:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Fwd: Re: Urgent - conflict checking help!!!
Message-ID: <576518.8070.qm@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

lets try Tir Righ again with the right addy....

--- Katrynka Chornovoloskaya <katrynka2 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 02:40:48 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Katrynka Chornovoloskaya <katrynka2 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Urgent - conflict checking help!!!
> To: antir-heralds at antir.sca.org, herald at tirrigh.org
> 
> I tried sending this with attachments of the sketches but it didn't
> seem to come through (too large??) so I will try again without
> them. 
> If you want to see the pics, email me and I can forward them to
> you.
> 
> I have been working on this for a little while but now I am
> desperate
> for the help of the great heralds of Tir Righ and An Tir as my
> clients just went and won Crown and don't have devices that are
> even
> submitted yet. :-}
> 
> The below needs to be conflict checked ASAP as the devices are for
> Owain ap Einar and Adwen Wren. 
> 
> In plain english (as my emblazoning is very rusty), Owain's is
> gules
> with two argent swans in a circle (chasing each other head to
> tail)and Wren's is per pale with three stripes Or, azure and Or
> with
> an argent sun (with its rays, of course) on the azure center field.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your help, 
> 
> Kat
> 
> 
> Pomestnitsa (Lady) Katrynka Chornovoloskaya
> Herald, Shire of Ramsgaard
> Or, a heart gules issuant from a vol sable
> all within a bordure azure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 




Pomestnitsa (Lady) Katrynka Chornovoloskaya
Herald, Shire of Ramsgaard
Or, a heart gules issuant from a vol sable
all within a bordure azure.


      



From katrynka2 at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 02:56:15 2008
From: katrynka2 at yahoo.com (Katrynka Chornovoloskaya)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 02:56:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] per pale vert and sable... conflict check please
Message-ID: <217852.74016.qm@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If someone could please confirm my findings.  I have checked 'per
pale vert and sable', daisy and daisies and did not see anything that
looked like it conflicted.

the proposed device is (sorry, my blazoning is very rusty): "per pale
vert and sable" with a ring of daisy flowers (my client has drawn 9)
"argent seeded Or".

The only thing that I could find that was even close was:
Alexander Neep - The following device associated with this name was
registered in July of 2004 (via the Middle): Per pale vert and sable,
five bezants in annulo two, two and one.  I do know know if a yellow
or gold circular disk conflicts with a silver daisy or not.

Thanks for your help, Kat


Pomestnitsa (Lady) Katrynka Chornovoloskaya
Herald, Shire of Ramsgaard
Or, a heart gules issuant from a vol sable
all within a bordure azure.


      



From katrynka2 at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 03:00:23 2008
From: katrynka2 at yahoo.com (Katrynka Chornovoloskaya)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 03:00:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] per pale azure and argent ... conflict check
	please
Message-ID: <270339.76322.qm@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

for my client:  per pale azure and argent, two palm branches/fronds
in saltire, counterchanged.

I'm thinking that there is a conflict with:  Alexander Kirkpatrick -
The following device associated with this name was registered in July
of 1993 (via Calontir) - Per pale azure and argent, a pickax and a
spade inverted in saltire counterchanged.

Or is there two CD, one for the pickax and one for the spade?  I'm
not sure whether they would be counted as one or two.  And I'm
guessing that the inverted position of the pickax and spade would be
a moot point?

THanks for your help, Kat


Pomestnitsa (Lady) Katrynka Chornovoloskaya
Herald, Shire of Ramsgaard
Or, a heart gules issuant from a vol sable
all within a bordure azure.


      



From katrynka2 at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 03:10:24 2008
From: katrynka2 at yahoo.com (Katrynka Chornovoloskaya)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 03:10:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Gaelic name help please
In-Reply-To: <711982.79129.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <738492.38176.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Below is a portion of an email I received from a client.  He is
wanting a Gaelic name (from what I read, Irish and 12th C but I am
waiting on confirmation of this) and I know very little about Gaelic
naming practices.  I'm hoping someone can help me.

Thanks, Kat.

=============================
> > 
> > From: Thom Wescott [mailto:thom.wescott at gmail.com] 
> > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 6:00 PM
> > To: ramsgaardwebminister at shaw.ca
> > Subject: <Heraldry Questions>
> > 
> > To M'lady Katrynka Chernovolskya, Herald of Ramsgaard, 
> > 
> > Greetings.
> > 
> > I am writing to ask for your help in registering my first
> > name and device with the SCA,
> > 
> > The name is another matter.  I have basically only the resources
I can find on-line linked through the SCA site, and the more I
research the more intimidated I become.  As I understand the An Tir
College of Heralds is not very interested in the story behind the
name, requiring it to stand on documentation alone, I will list what
I have first, and then add my brief thoughts to inform your comments.
> > 
> > My proposed name is "Bran mac sgiobair of Rum"
> > 
> > 'Bran' is listed in Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn's "100 Most
Popular Men's Names in Early Medieval Ireland" and I trust presents
no problems.
> > 
> > The patronymic byname 'mac sgiobair' is descriptive of the
father's occupation.  The article by Sharon L. Krossa (I'll go back
and find the exact reference if it looks like this may be arguable)
states that although bynames descriptive of the persons occupation
were vanishingly rare to non-existent in early Gaelic naming
traditions, occupational patronymics were occasionally used. 
Sgiobair is found in McBain's Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic
Language, meaning skipper or captain of a small vessel, and is from a
Norse root.  Although no date is given on-line for it's adoption into
Gaelic, I am presuming that after a couple hundred years contact
between the Norse and Gaelic cultures, this term had made it's way
into common usage.
> > 
> > The locative 'of Rum' is from the largest of the small isles of
the Inner Hebrides.  From the official Rum website, it appears that
the earliest written reference to the name was from a sixth or
seventh century Irish monk "Beccan Ruim."  The island was also
referred to as Rhum, at some point, and I have not been able to
determine which would be the most prevalent spelling in 12th century
Europe.
> > 
> > As for my romantic defense of the unusual formation of the name,
since my personna's father was a Norse seaman settling in a Gaelic
community, it seems to me unlikely that a person would be known
locally in those times as "Bran mac Ragnar" or some such, and the
Gaelic descriptive patronymic would slide more easily off the local
tongue.  I have also included a second, geographic byname since my
personna has spent much of his life on extended "merchant" trips, and
sailing the Mediterranean with the Italian and Norse fleets in
support of the crusades, where the descriptive patronymic would not
hold much meaning.
> > 



      



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Fri May 30 03:46:15 2008
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 03:46:15 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Fwd: Re: Urgent - conflict checking help!!!
In-Reply-To: <576518.8070.qm@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <576518.8070.qm@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <232740310805300346j2fd480e6p8aeb2581c8293872@mail.gmail.com>

>> I tried sending this with attachments of the sketches but it didn't
>> seem to come through (too large??) so I will try again without
>> them.
>> If you want to see the pics, email me and I can forward them to
>> you.

The lists don't take attachments.  Send them to me and I'll put them up for you.

>> The below needs to be conflict checked ASAP as the devices are for
>> Owain ap Einar and Adwen Wren.

Her Highness has no registered name.  A preliminary look through the
kingdom library didn't come up with anything (AEstel and I checked
about five minutes after Owain won...), but Adwen has been registered
twice, once in 2000 and once in 2004.  One was in a Welsh context
(Adwen verch Gryffyn) and the other unknown (Adwen Raa). Laurel made
no comment on either registration so we'll have to find documentation
for her.  Wren is no problem in Englis; whether it's compatible with
Adwen will need to be figured out when we find documentation for the
forename.

>> In plain english (as my emblazoning is very rusty), Owain's is
>> gules
>> with two argent swans in a circle (chasing each other head to
>> tail)and Wren's is per pale with three stripes Or, azure and Or
>> with
>> an argent sun (with its rays, of course) on the azure center field.

Blazon is the words, emblazon is the picture. :)

Owain's seems to be 'Sable, two swans in annulo argent' but I cannot
be sure.  Since swans aren't quadrupeds, I'll need to see a picture of
this in order to figure out how to accurately blazon it and whether or
not the depiction is compatible with period style.  Swans default to
rousant (rising) and rousant doesn't work with annulo so we'll have to
figure out what their posture actually is and if they're identifiable.
 We need to work out style before we can even consider conflict.
(I must admit I was really hoping he'd do something period and Welsh...)

The stripe down the middle of Adwen's is 'a pale'.  So 'Or, on a pale
azure a sun argent.'

Conflict with Aonghas Cu - December of 2000 (via An Tir): Or, on a
pale azure a fir tree couped argent.
There is one CD via X.4.j. for changes to the tertiary charge.

Possible conflict with Stella de Lundeia - October of 2003 (via
Ansteorra): Or, on a pale between in chief two mullets azure a comet
headed of a mullet Or.
There is one CD via X.4.b. for removing the secondary charge group but
there might not be the substantial difference between a mullet-headed
comet and a sun for a second CD under X.4.j.ii.

Would her Highness consider putting a complex line on the pale?

- Teceangl
-- 
Heraldry is designed to be easily reproduced by anyone who sees the arms. -
http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/clichelist.html



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Fri May 30 04:02:56 2008
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:02:56 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] per pale vert and sable... conflict check
	please
In-Reply-To: <217852.74016.qm@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <217852.74016.qm@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <232740310805300402w4b0d4c3fy97f43f1d611613e4@mail.gmail.com>

> If someone could please confirm my findings.  I have checked 'per
> pale vert and sable', daisy and daisies and did not see anything that
> looked like it conflicted.

You need to be using the Index to the online Ordinary for a thorough
conflict check.  Unfortunately, its location is something of a CoA
secret (I'm working on getting that taken care of).  Always start
here:
http://oanda.sca.org/ordinary/index.html

It's alphabetical - just look up the charge you need.  D for Daisy or
Flower - Daisy both send you to Flower - Multipetaled.

> the proposed device is (sorry, my blazoning is very rusty): "per pale
> vert and sable" with a ring of daisy flowers (my client has drawn 9)
> "argent seeded Or".
>
> The only thing that I could find that was even close was:
> Alexander Neep - The following device associated with this name was
> registered in July of 2004 (via the Middle): Per pale vert and sable,
> five bezants in annulo two, two and one.  I do know know if a yellow
> or gold circular disk conflicts with a silver daisy or not.

Yup, you're rusty. :)

X.2. - both armories qualify and the type of every primary charge has
been changed.
http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/regs.html
Another one to add to your bookmark file and re-read.  Welcome back,
jump on in, the water's fine.

Let me see about this.  Per pale vert and sable, daisies in annulo argent.
(Six and higher numbers get zilch difference, sans nombre gets drawn
as seven or more usually, so the exact number doesn't need to be
blazoned and indeed shouldn't be if it's over eight.)

Flowers might get a CD for type but not X.2. so check all multipetaled
flowers in any number on a matching field,  in numbers over six (five
is different from eight or more...) on any field, then check all other
types of flowers in numbers over six (on any field because difference
between flower types is not always straightforward and you shouldn't
assume anything until you find all possibilities and check precedents
to be sure).

It might also be possible that a daisy is not substantially different
from an estoile, or a sun.  Oog, yeah, definitely sun.

So I checked all the flowers, estoiles and suns.  I suspect it's clear.

- Teceangl
-- 
Heraldry is designed to be easily reproduced by anyone who sees the arms. -
http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/clichelist.html



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Fri May 30 04:09:22 2008
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:09:22 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Fwd: Re: Urgent - conflict checking help!!!
In-Reply-To: <232740310805300346j2fd480e6p8aeb2581c8293872@mail.gmail.com>
References: <576518.8070.qm@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<232740310805300346j2fd480e6p8aeb2581c8293872@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <232740310805300409w20dfe8beke30d58826afb94e8@mail.gmail.com>

I have been kindly informed that her Highnesses' name and device have
been sent to Laurel, on the May 2008 Letter of Intent.  She cotised
the pale and eliminated the conflicts I found.
Her name documentation isn't really great - anyone who can find a date
on Adwen would be of immense help, as the source she had has no date
on the name and without dates, it's not really documentation.

So relax, Katrynka.  Her Highnesses' submission has been made (before
Crown - YAY!) and you needn't worry about it.  Let's help his Highness
get his armory - email the picture to tierna at agora.rdrop.com and I'll
put it online immediately and post the URL here.

- Teceangl
-- 
Heraldry is designed to be easily reproduced by anyone who sees the arms. -
http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/clichelist.html



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Fri May 30 04:39:47 2008
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:39:47 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] per pale azure and argent ... conflict check
	please
In-Reply-To: <270339.76322.qm@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <270339.76322.qm@web30502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <232740310805300439tfefb91ehb6be8c5f09784d43@mail.gmail.com>

> for my client:  per pale azure and argent, two palm branches/fronds
> in saltire, counterchanged.
>
> I'm thinking that there is a conflict with:  Alexander Kirkpatrick -
> The following device associated with this name was registered in July
> of 1993 (via Calontir) - Per pale azure and argent, a pickax and a
> spade inverted in saltire counterchanged.
>
> Or is there two CD, one for the pickax and one for the spade?  I'm
> not sure whether they would be counted as one or two.  And I'm
> guessing that the inverted position of the pickax and spade would be
> a moot point?

Clear by X.2. with no more than two types of charges on the field, no
overall charges, and the type of every charge in the primary group
having been changed.

The Ordinary categories to look under are Plant and Tree branch and
Leaf.  There is a ruling that a branch is not significantly (no CD)
different from a tree of the same type. Honestly, if it's a palm frond
I'd make an argument that this is the exception because a palm has
such a distinctly different from a frond/branch shape. But we only
need to argue if we find a problem with palm trees. :)

Elizabeth Dameral Sage - November of 1980 (via Meridies): Per pale
azure and argent, in saltire a slip of borage [Borage officianalis]
surmounting a sage blossom [Salvia officianalis] slipped and leaved
proper.
A definite CD for the change of tincture of the plants by X.4.d.  A
very probable CD for type of plant since palm fronds have such a
distinct shape and were well-known in period (make a pilgrimage to
Jerusalem, get a palm frond, now you're a palmer) and borage and sage
blossoms look rather different.  Most likely clear.

That's it.  Looks clear to me.  Double checks eagerly requested.

- Teceangl
-- 
Heraldry is designed to be easily reproduced by anyone who sees the arms. -
http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/clichelist.html