From bear_necessities at telus.net Sun Apr 4 20:19:34 2010 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 20:19:34 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium - Last chance to register! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8111CDBA83AA4160B7C45FF75A50BC89@NancyPC> Registration is closing at 5:00 pm Monday, for the first Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium! Check out the class schedule at http://www.lionsdale.net/symposium/classes.html and email me with your preferred classes at bear_necessities at telus.net. Please check out the other pages on the site for site and feast information, site fees, etc. PLEASE NOTE: - Alternative Scrolls: Rune Stones is full! - Heraldry For Non-Heraldic Cultures has been cancelled. - Heraldic Display (From Ganfannon To Gown) has been cancelled. Yours In Service Doireann Dechti From bear_necessities at telus.net Sun Apr 4 21:54:46 2010 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 21:54:46 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Branch Heralds attending Symposium In-Reply-To: <8111CDBA83AA4160B7C45FF75A50BC89@NancyPC> References: <8111CDBA83AA4160B7C45FF75A50BC89@NancyPC> Message-ID: <796184B860144F6791E823E5B7096086@NancyPC> If you are a branch herald attending the Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium, please bring your branch herald tabards if you have one. We'd love to get a group photo, and having tabards will make it all the more awesome! Doireann From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sun Apr 4 22:05:14 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 22:05:14 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Branch Heralds attending Symposium In-Reply-To: <796184B860144F6791E823E5B7096086@NancyPC> References: <8111CDBA83AA4160B7C45FF75A50BC89@NancyPC> <796184B860144F6791E823E5B7096086@NancyPC> Message-ID: > If you are a branch herald attending the Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium, please > bring your branch herald tabards if you have one. ?We'd love to get a group > photo, and having tabards will make it all the more awesome! I want to see you all doing a pyramid. In tabards. :) (By the way, same goes for KWHSS - if you're coming, bring your tabard. We're showing off.) - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From bear_necessities at telus.net Mon Apr 5 02:05:31 2010 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 02:05:31 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Branch Heralds attending Symposium In-Reply-To: References: <8111CDBA83AA4160B7C45FF75A50BC89@NancyPC> <796184B860144F6791E823E5B7096086@NancyPC> Message-ID: Teceangl wrote: I want to see you all doing a pyramid. In tabards. :) ************************ Yeah, sure thing! Dori From bear_necessities at telus.net Tue Apr 6 13:14:44 2010 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:14:44 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Symposium Registration now closed Message-ID: <345C42091F564ECE902C0805AB46BAFD@NancyPC> Thank you to everyone who registered for this weekend's Tir Righ Heraldic Symposium. Registration for classes is now closed. There are still a lot of things to do for people not attending classes, however, including tournaments, competitions and food! http://www.lionsdale.net/symposium/ Doireann Dechti From tierna.britt at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 14:00:27 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:00:27 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] KWHSS schedule is up! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings! The schedule grid, linking class titles with their descriptions, and including all present information, is now online. Remember, pre-registration is open until April 30th, so there's still time. - Teceangl, event steward -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Tue Apr 6 16:22:31 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:22:31 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] FW: KWHSS schedule is up! Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Teceangl [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:52 PM To: Discussions of SCA Heraldry Subject: KWHSS schedule is up! Greetings! The schedule grid, linking class titles with their descriptions, and including all present information, is now online. Remember, pre-registration is open until April 30th, so there's still time. - Teceangl, event steward -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From tomas at noaharney.com Wed Apr 14 09:01:36 2010 From: tomas at noaharney.com (Tomas) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:01:36 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter Message-ID: In the new letter that just got posted I saw this in the returns section: Tir R?gh, Principality of. Order name Order of the Silver Sparkes. This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title Silversparre Herald. The commenters were agreed that there is insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two names. While the submitters provided a letter from the King and Queen of Drachenwald permitting this order name to conflict with Silversparre Herald, this is one of the rare cases where the letter of permission to conflict is not sufficient to allow the order name to be registered. Current practices allows someone owning Order of the X to use X Herald or X Pursuivant (v. Order of the Caltrop, LoAR 10/1999, R-?thelmearc). The heraldic title Silver Sparkes Herald also conflicts with Silversparre Herald, and as permission to conflict was not received for that title, it was returned elsewhere on this LoAR. We cannot register Order of the Silver Sparkes to the kingdom since this would allow them to use the corresponding heraldic title, with which they do not have permission to conflict. Tir R?gh, Principality of. Heraldic title Silver Sparkes Herald. This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title Silversparre Herald. The commenters were agreed that there is insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two titles. I'm afraid that I didn't quite understand why permission to conflict isn't permission to conflict in this case. That, and I thought it would be neat for us to start discussing things on this list . ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Honorable Tomas de Courcy (GdS) Arts and Sciences Defender of Lions Gate Lionsdale Webminister -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Emoticon1.gif Type: image/gif Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Caitrina at shaw.ca Wed Apr 14 16:40:48 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:40:48 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2909280C246A4FD39B6D271FF9644E5C@carncats.ca> Thanks for posting Tomas :-) I believe this may be a typo on the Laurel letter. As far as I knew, we had permission to conflict with the ?Order of the Silversparre?. Unfortunately this does not automatically assume we have permission to also conflict with the heraldic title Silversparre Herald and we need an additional letter to clear that conflict. Red Flame advised me of the issue at the Symposium and it is in the works to clear conflict. Alicia can you confirm? Caitrina _____ From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Tomas Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:02 AM To: (list) Tir Righ Heralds Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter In the new letter that just got posted I saw this in the returns section: Tir R?gh, Principality of. Order name Order of the Silver Sparkes. This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title Silversparre Herald. The commenters were agreed that there is insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two names. While the submitters provided a letter from the King and Queen of Drachenwald permitting this order name to conflict with Silversparre Herald, this is one of the rare cases where the letter of permission to conflict is not sufficient to allow the order name to be registered. Current practices allows someone owning Order of the X to use X Herald or X Pursuivant (v. Order of the Caltrop, LoAR 10/1999, R-?thelmearc). The heraldic title Silver Sparkes Herald also conflicts with Silversparre Herald, and as permission to conflict was not received for that title, it was returned elsewhere on this LoAR. We cannot register Order of the Silver Sparkes to the kingdom since this would allow them to use the corresponding heraldic title, with which they do not have permission to conflict. Tir R?gh, Principality of. Heraldic title Silver Sparkes Herald. This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title Silversparre Herald. The commenters were agreed that there is insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two titles. I'm afraid that I didn't quite understand why permission to conflict isn't permission to conflict in this case. That, and I thought it would be neat for us to start discussing things on this list Smile emoticon. ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Honorable Tomas de Courcy (GdS) Arts and Sciences Defender of Lions Gate Lionsdale Webminister -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available URL: From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 19:14:06 2010 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 19:14:06 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter In-Reply-To: <2909280C246A4FD39B6D271FF9644E5C@carncats.ca> References: <2909280C246A4FD39B6D271FF9644E5C@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4BC6766E.2030002@gmail.com> Unfortunately it is not a typo. Pelican determined that a letter of permission was insufficient. I recommend appealing it. Richenda On 4/14/2010 4:40 PM, Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: > Thanks for posting Tomas J > > I believe this may be a typo on the Laurel letter. As far as I knew, we > had permission to conflict with the ?Order of the Silversparre?. > Unfortunately this does not automatically assume we have permission to > also conflict with the heraldic title Silversparre Herald and we need an > additional letter to clear that conflict. Red Flame advised me of the > issue at the Symposium and it is in the works to clear conflict. > > Alicia can you confirm? > > Caitrina > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org > [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] *On Behalf Of *Tomas > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:02 AM > *To:* (list) Tir Righ Heralds > *Subject:* [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter > > In the new letter that just got posted I saw this in the returns section: > > *Tir R?gh, Principality of.* Order name Order of the Silver Sparkes. > > This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title > /Silversparre Herald/. The commenters were agreed that there is > insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two names. > > While the submitters provided a letter from the King and Queen of > Drachenwald permitting this order name to conflict with /Silversparre > Herald/, this is one of the rare cases where the letter of permission to > conflict is not sufficient to allow the order name to be registered. > Current practices allows someone owning Order of the X to use X Herald > or X Pursuivant (v. Order of the Caltrop, LoAR 10/1999, R-?thelmearc). > The heraldic title /Silver Sparkes Herald/ also conflicts with > /Silversparre Herald/, and as permission to conflict was not received > for that title, it was returned elsewhere on this LoAR. We cannot > register /Order of the Silver Sparkes/ to the kingdom since this would > allow them to use the corresponding heraldic title, with which they do > not have permission to conflict. > > *Tir R?gh, Principality of.* Heraldic title Silver Sparkes Herald. > > This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title > /Silversparre Herald/. The commenters were agreed that there is > insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two titles. > > I'm afraid that I didn't quite understand why permission to conflict > isn't permission to conflict in this case. That, and I thought it would > be neat for us to start discussing things on this list Smile emoticon. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Honorable Tomas de Courcy (GdS) > Arts and Sciences Defender of Lions Gate > Lionsdale Webminister > > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Wed Apr 14 19:19:57 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 19:19:57 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter In-Reply-To: <4BC6766E.2030002@gmail.com> References: <2909280C246A4FD39B6D271FF9644E5C@carncats.ca> <4BC6766E.2030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5496E7CD4D7F429BB51B54D9CFCE83E5@carncats.ca> Great minds think alike... Uilliam and I have been reading and re-reading it over and over trying to figure it out and have come to the same conclusion. Thanks so much Richenda. Will we be seeing you at KWHSS? Caitrina -----Original Message----- From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Richenda du Jardin Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:14 PM To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter Unfortunately it is not a typo. Pelican determined that a letter of permission was insufficient. I recommend appealing it. Richenda On 4/14/2010 4:40 PM, Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: > Thanks for posting Tomas J > > I believe this may be a typo on the Laurel letter. As far as I knew, we > had permission to conflict with the ?Order of the Silversparre?. > Unfortunately this does not automatically assume we have permission to > also conflict with the heraldic title Silversparre Herald and we need an > additional letter to clear that conflict. Red Flame advised me of the > issue at the Symposium and it is in the works to clear conflict. > > Alicia can you confirm? > > Caitrina > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org > [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] *On Behalf Of *Tomas > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:02 AM > *To:* (list) Tir Righ Heralds > *Subject:* [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter > > In the new letter that just got posted I saw this in the returns section: > > *Tir R?gh, Principality of.* Order name Order of the Silver Sparkes. > > This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title > /Silversparre Herald/. The commenters were agreed that there is > insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two names. > > While the submitters provided a letter from the King and Queen of > Drachenwald permitting this order name to conflict with /Silversparre > Herald/, this is one of the rare cases where the letter of permission to > conflict is not sufficient to allow the order name to be registered. > Current practices allows someone owning Order of the X to use X Herald > or X Pursuivant (v. Order of the Caltrop, LoAR 10/1999, R-?thelmearc). > The heraldic title /Silver Sparkes Herald/ also conflicts with > /Silversparre Herald/, and as permission to conflict was not received > for that title, it was returned elsewhere on this LoAR. We cannot > register /Order of the Silver Sparkes/ to the kingdom since this would > allow them to use the corresponding heraldic title, with which they do > not have permission to conflict. > > *Tir R?gh, Principality of.* Heraldic title Silver Sparkes Herald. > > This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title > /Silversparre Herald/. The commenters were agreed that there is > insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two titles. > > I'm afraid that I didn't quite understand why permission to conflict > isn't permission to conflict in this case. That, and I thought it would > be neat for us to start discussing things on this list Smile emoticon. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Honorable Tomas de Courcy (GdS) > Arts and Sciences Defender of Lions Gate > Lionsdale Webminister > > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org =============================================== Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 19:22:08 2010 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 19:22:08 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter In-Reply-To: <5496E7CD4D7F429BB51B54D9CFCE83E5@carncats.ca> References: <2909280C246A4FD39B6D271FF9644E5C@carncats.ca> <4BC6766E.2030002@gmail.com> <5496E7CD4D7F429BB51B54D9CFCE83E5@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4BC67850.7010809@gmail.com> I'll be there. I'm teaching how to clear conflicts and maintain period style. Richenda On 4/14/2010 7:19 PM, Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: > Great minds think alike... Uilliam and I have been reading and re-reading it > over and over trying to figure it out and have come to the same conclusion. > > Thanks so much Richenda. Will we be seeing you at KWHSS? > > Caitrina > > -----Original Message----- > From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org > [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Richenda du > Jardin > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:14 PM > To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org > Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter > > > Unfortunately it is not a typo. Pelican determined that a letter of > permission was insufficient. > > I recommend appealing it. > > Richenda > > On 4/14/2010 4:40 PM, Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: >> Thanks for posting Tomas J >> >> I believe this may be a typo on the Laurel letter. As far as I knew, we >> had permission to conflict with the ?Order of the Silversparre?. >> Unfortunately this does not automatically assume we have permission to >> also conflict with the heraldic title Silversparre Herald and we need an >> additional letter to clear that conflict. Red Flame advised me of the >> issue at the Symposium and it is in the works to clear conflict. >> >> Alicia can you confirm? >> >> Caitrina >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:* collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org >> [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] *On Behalf Of *Tomas >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:02 AM >> *To:* (list) Tir Righ Heralds >> *Subject:* [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter >> >> In the new letter that just got posted I saw this in the returns section: >> >> *Tir R?gh, Principality of.* Order name Order of the Silver Sparkes. >> >> This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title >> /Silversparre Herald/. The commenters were agreed that there is >> insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two names. >> >> While the submitters provided a letter from the King and Queen of >> Drachenwald permitting this order name to conflict with /Silversparre >> Herald/, this is one of the rare cases where the letter of permission to >> conflict is not sufficient to allow the order name to be registered. >> Current practices allows someone owning Order of the X to use X Herald >> or X Pursuivant (v. Order of the Caltrop, LoAR 10/1999, R-?thelmearc). >> The heraldic title /Silver Sparkes Herald/ also conflicts with >> /Silversparre Herald/, and as permission to conflict was not received >> for that title, it was returned elsewhere on this LoAR. We cannot >> register /Order of the Silver Sparkes/ to the kingdom since this would >> allow them to use the corresponding heraldic title, with which they do >> not have permission to conflict. >> >> *Tir R?gh, Principality of.* Heraldic title Silver Sparkes Herald. >> >> This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title >> /Silversparre Herald/. The commenters were agreed that there is >> insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two titles. >> >> I'm afraid that I didn't quite understand why permission to conflict >> isn't permission to conflict in this case. That, and I thought it would >> be neat for us to start discussing things on this list Smile emoticon. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> The Honorable Tomas de Courcy (GdS) >> Arts and Sciences Defender of Lions Gate >> Lionsdale Webminister >> >> >> >> =============================================== >> Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list >> Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org >> Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" > (without quotes) >> or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" > (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > From jdharcus at telus.net Wed Apr 14 20:12:57 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 20:12:57 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter In-Reply-To: <2909280C246A4FD39B6D271FF9644E5C@carncats.ca> References: <2909280C246A4FD39B6D271FF9644E5C@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4BC68439.50409@telus.net> Yes, the issue is that although we have permission for our order name to conflict with Silversparre Herald, I neglected to ask permission for a heraldic title to conflict as well. As the return mentions, if we have an order name registered, we are allowed to use a herald's title based on that whether or not we register the herald's title which creates a potential conflict. Juliana and I had a discussion on the weekend about appealing as there appears to be grounds for this. To be sure we could also request a new letter giving permission to conflict for *both* the order name and the heraldic title. Given who just won Drachenwald's Crown Tourney, Juliana suggested that we might wish to wait another month or so before making this new request. These seems a wise course to me. Alicia Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: > Thanks for posting Tomas J > > > > I believe this may be a typo on the Laurel letter. As far as I knew, > we had permission to conflict with the "Order of the Silversparre". > Unfortunately this does not automatically assume we have permission to > also conflict with the heraldic title Silversparre Herald and we need > an additional letter to clear that conflict. Red Flame advised me of > the issue at the Symposium and it is in the works to clear conflict. > > > > Alicia can you confirm? > > > > Caitrina > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org > [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Tomas > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:02 AM > To: (list) Tir Righ Heralds > Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Question regarding the Laurel Letter > > > > In the new letter that just got posted I saw this in the returns section: > > > > Tir R?gh, Principality of. Order name Order of the Silver Sparkes. > > This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title > Silversparre Herald. The commenters were agreed that there is > insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two names. > > While the submitters provided a letter from the King and Queen of > Drachenwald permitting this order name to conflict with Silversparre > Herald, this is one of the rare cases where the letter of permission > to conflict is not sufficient to allow the order name to be > registered. Current practices allows someone owning Order of the X to > use X Herald or X Pursuivant (v. Order of the Caltrop, LoAR 10/1999, > R-?thelmearc). The heraldic title Silver Sparkes Herald also conflicts > with Silversparre Herald, and as permission to conflict was not > received for that title, it was returned elsewhere on this LoAR. We > cannot register Order of the Silver Sparkes to the kingdom since this > would allow them to use the corresponding heraldic title, with which > they do not have permission to conflict. > > Tir R?gh, Principality of. Heraldic title Silver Sparkes Herald. > > This is returned for conflict with Drachenwald's heraldic title > Silversparre Herald. The commenters were agreed that there is > insignificant difference in sound and appearance between these two > titles. > > > > I'm afraid that I didn't quite understand why permission to conflict > isn't permission to conflict in this case. That, and I thought it > would be neat for us to start discussing things on this list Smile > emoticon. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Honorable Tomas de Courcy (GdS) > Arts and Sciences Defender of Lions Gate > Lionsdale Webminister > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >=============================================== >Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list >Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) >or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sat Apr 24 21:26:16 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 21:26:16 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ Message-ID: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> Greetings! Work is being done to give our hard working officers spiffy names and I figured this would be the best place to get the creative minds working on it. Remember these titles would have to be conflict checked, etc, to be registered but we have to start somewhere. Common Herald naming practices looks as though a "Herald" is someone who answers directly to the Principal Herald, whereas a "Pursuivant" is a deputy to someone who answers directly to the Principal Herald. Call it Heraldic Hierarchy. So keeping that in mind...here is what is in the works so far... Submissions Herald of Tir Righ - Raven's Blood Herald Electronic Deputy - Linx Herald Online Consulting (deputy to Red Flame Herald) - Pursuivant Principality Scribe - the Reporting Deputy to Silver Yale - Herald Deputy Herald - (Field and Town Crier) - Herald (with possible Pursuivants down the road for separate Field and Town Cry deputies) Court Herald - Herald So we need all the blanks filled in. Thoughts? Ideas? Caitrina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bear_necessities at telus.net Sat Apr 24 21:55:35 2010 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 21:55:35 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <3BB9DD918E084B1B87C63F0B69377410@NancyPC> > Submissions Herald of Tir Righ - Raven's Blood Herald > > Electronic Deputy - Linx Herald > > Online Consulting (deputy to Red Flame Herald) - Pursuivant > > Principality Scribe - the > > Reporting Deputy to Silver Yale - Herald > > Deputy Herald - (Field and Town Crier) - Herald (with possible > Pursuivants down the road for separate Field and Town Cry deputies) > > Court Herald - Herald Educational Deputy is Black Bear... at the time Teceangl consulted on it with me, it was free of conflict.... That was a year or two back though. Doireann From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 22:15:17 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:15:17 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> Message-ID: > Submissions Herald of Tir Righ - Raven's Blood Herald Not gonna happen. The pattern thing's-blood is not a period pattern for heraldic titles. HOWEVER... Raven Herald would seem to be clear. And it's a very period title. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From mhood at shaw.ca Sat Apr 24 22:19:54 2010 From: mhood at shaw.ca (Mark Hood) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:19:54 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4BD3D0FA.2080602@shaw.ca> Buuut..... could An Tir register the name, as they've already got Lions Blood? On the other hand, Raven Herald is cool. Uilliam Almost Still a Herald. Teceangl wrote: >> Submissions Herald of Tir Righ - Raven's Blood Herald >> > > Not gonna happen. The pattern thing's-blood is not a period pattern > for heraldic titles. > HOWEVER... Raven Herald would seem to be clear. And it's a very period title. > > - Teceangl > From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 22:23:07 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:23:07 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD3D0FA.2080602@shaw.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <4BD3D0FA.2080602@shaw.ca> Message-ID: > Buuut..... could An Tir register the name, as they've already got Lions > Blood? Maaaaaybe. Probably. Why perpetrate non-period style when you can just have raven, though? :) > On the other hand, Raven Herald is cool. When I found both Ounce and Pomegranate clear, I was elated. Single-word titles have such an ancient and noble feel. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sat Apr 24 22:32:25 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:32:25 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <491427D0AEE54D5AADA8A9D6B811F20F@carncats.ca> Yup, that was my understanding too. Exactly why Lions Gate couldn't register the Order of the Lion's Mark. I personally like Raven Herald too. : ) Caitrina -----Original Message----- From: Teceangl [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 10:15 PM To: Caitrina many hats MacAndrew Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > Submissions Herald of Tir Righ - Raven's Blood Herald Not gonna happen. The pattern thing's-blood is not a period pattern for heraldic titles. HOWEVER... Raven Herald would seem to be clear. And it's a very period title. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 22:42:15 2010 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:42:15 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> Has anyone looked at Dona Juliana de Luna's Medieval Order Names article (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/order/new/)? That might help with construction ideas. Richenda On 4/24/2010 9:26 PM, Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: > Greetings! > > Work is being done to give our hard working officers spiffy names and I > figured this would be the best place to get the creative minds working > on it. Remember these titles would have to be conflict checked, etc, to > be registered but we have to start somewhere. > > Common Herald naming practices looks as though a "Herald" is someone who > answers directly to the Principal Herald, whereas a "Pursuivant" is a > deputy to someone who answers directly to the Principal Herald. Call it > Heraldic Hierarchy. So keeping that in mind...here is what is in the > works so far... > > Submissions Herald of Tir Righ - Raven's Blood Herald > > Electronic Deputy - Linx Herald > > Online Consulting (deputy to Red Flame Herald) - Pursuivant > > Principality Scribe - the > > Reporting Deputy to Silver Yale - Herald > > Deputy Herald ? (Field and Town Crier) - Herald (with possible > Pursuivants down the road for separate Field and Town Cry deputies) > > Court Herald - Herald > > > So we need all the blanks filled in. Thoughts? Ideas? > > Caitrina > > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sat Apr 24 22:50:50 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:50:50 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4042AF49C5D94F0E93B968F8A490041D@carncats.ca> Thanks Richenda :) We have a FaceBook Group as well for those who prefer that means of communication and have posted the link there as well. Caitrina -----Original Message----- From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Richenda du Jardin Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 10:42 PM To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ Has anyone looked at Dona Juliana de Luna's Medieval Order Names article (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/order/new/)? That might help with construction ideas. Richenda On 4/24/2010 9:26 PM, Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: > Greetings! > > Work is being done to give our hard working officers spiffy names and I > figured this would be the best place to get the creative minds working > on it. Remember these titles would have to be conflict checked, etc, to > be registered but we have to start somewhere. > > Common Herald naming practices looks as though a "Herald" is someone who > answers directly to the Principal Herald, whereas a "Pursuivant" is a > deputy to someone who answers directly to the Principal Herald. Call it > Heraldic Hierarchy. So keeping that in mind...here is what is in the > works so far... > > Submissions Herald of Tir Righ - Raven's Blood Herald > > Electronic Deputy - Linx Herald > > Online Consulting (deputy to Red Flame Herald) - Pursuivant > > Principality Scribe - the > > Reporting Deputy to Silver Yale - Herald > > Deputy Herald - (Field and Town Crier) - Herald (with possible > Pursuivants down the road for separate Field and Town Cry deputies) > > Court Herald - Herald > > > So we need all the blanks filled in. Thoughts? Ideas? > > Caitrina > > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org =============================================== Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 23:07:33 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 23:07:33 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4042AF49C5D94F0E93B968F8A490041D@carncats.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> <4042AF49C5D94F0E93B968F8A490041D@carncats.ca> Message-ID: > Thanks Richenda :) ?We have a FaceBook Group as well for those who prefer > that means of communication and have posted the link there as well. Please keep discussion here. Social networking sites should never circumvent the official mailing lists, and if the discussion moves many of us won't follow it, meaning you'll be taking it away from some of the expertise available. Besides, when there's a perfectly good list, it ought to be used. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sat Apr 24 23:39:42 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 23:39:42 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> <4042AF49C5D94F0E93B968F8A490041D@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4D676B6E64CE4F6F93785D85F1AD36C9@carncats.ca> You're right and we are trying to use this list more but with it being dormant for so long it's going to take some time to bring people back. We're hoping with our website going up it will help as well, but that is also taking time as it's a blank slate right now. With a lot of our most active heralds holding offices for An Tir and so using the Kingdom list, this list has fallen by the wayside. We're trying to get the interest of others to also join this list but are hitting the wall of, "I don't want to join another email list." FaceBook has at least gotten people interested again. Much like the SCA College of Heralds FaceBook group has been used to bring the visual aspect of Heraldry to so many as well as advertise the KWHSS... something I need to talk to you about later - I need to register. I will be sure to share the info back and forth and hopefully nothing will get lost but as noted, this is the first discussion this group has had in a very long time, and the first two answers I got were from yourself and Richenda which is fabulous and got me all SQUEEEE inside! But we need a way to get people back too. I'm open to any ideas. -----Original Message----- From: Teceangl [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 11:08 PM To: Caitrina many hats MacAndrew Cc: Richenda du Jardin; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > Thanks Richenda :) ?We have a FaceBook Group as well for those who prefer > that means of communication and have posted the link there as well. Please keep discussion here. Social networking sites should never circumvent the official mailing lists, and if the discussion moves many of us won't follow it, meaning you'll be taking it away from some of the expertise available. Besides, when there's a perfectly good list, it ought to be used. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 23:56:31 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 23:56:31 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4D676B6E64CE4F6F93785D85F1AD36C9@carncats.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> <4042AF49C5D94F0E93B968F8A490041D@carncats.ca> <4D676B6E64CE4F6F93785D85F1AD36C9@carncats.ca> Message-ID: > I'm open to any ideas. Remind them it's the official College list. And get them to post calls for event help here, as well as event announcements. The symposium posts should have brought them over; they were info-packed. Make it THE place to get information and cut off all the myriad of peripherals that are only accessible to a select few. :) - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 00:19:19 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:19:19 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] What is a Laurel precedent? Message-ID: While perusing old precedents the other night, I came across this missive from Baldwin of Erebor included in the introductions to the first compilations of Laurel rulings ever made. Baldwin himself was Laurel from August of 1984 though August of 1986 and it was his meticulous work in 1984 to create the first compiled Laurel precedents that set the groundwork of the next 16 years of compiling each Laurel tenure's rulings into a single, categorized document and which sparked my assignment to combine all these into a single Combined Armory Precedents (a work in progress I am delighted to tackle) by first Elisabeth di Rossignol as Laurel and renewed now by Olwynn Laurel. The explanation of what Laurel precedents are remains unchanged from when Baldwin first wrote it: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A precedent is an action or decision "that may be used as an example in dealing with subsequent similar cases." The Laurel Precedents documents are founded on the philosophy that heraldic decisions should, whenever possible, be based on previous decisions. Every decision should, of course, be made on the basis of the best information available at the time; but once a specific practice has been adopted or rejected, the precedent set thereby should not be lightly disregarded. Knowledge of SCA heraldry can be derived from four sources: (1) the Rules for Heraldic Submissions, (2) policy statements made in the Laurel correspondence, (3) explicit comments made on submissions that have been processed, and (4) the submissions themselves. The Rules for Heraldic Submissions have the advantage of being explicit, but they cannot be comprehensive; one still needs to know how the rules are to be applied. Policy statements are often more directly applicable than the rules, but they, too, require substantiation. Comments made on submissions provide immediate examples, but the reader may have difficulty determining the general principle from a single instance, particularly when the comments are sparse or inaccurate. The submissions themselves are the most accurate gauge of what has been approved, but they are not readily accessible, and they cannot explain why a specific action was taken, particularly in the case of a rejection. The Laurel Precedents documents are drawn from the second and third of these sources. They are made up of quotations from the formal correspondence of the Laurel Sovereign of Arms. They are a codification, in the words of the persons who made the decisions, of what has been called the "case law" of the SCA College of Arms. The Precedents do not replace the Laurel letters as a source of information, but they can make that information more accessible, by presenting those portions of the Laurel letters that seem best to explain SCA heraldic policy, selected, categorized, and edited. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ And remember that word: edited. At first precedents were only published in paper form and it was important to keep them to manageable size, therefore information was stripped to bare-bones for publication. Later, editing has been used to take out unnecessary references not pertaining to the category under which the ruling is filed - the same ruling might be seen in several different forms under different categories in each compilation. Go to the LoAR and read the ruling in its entirety to understand it fully, interpret it properly, and have the best chance of being able to apply it as needed to current cases. I've disregarded my own advice sometimes and it has tripped me up massively, and on one occasion caused an inaccuracy to be perpetrated for several years in the CoA. My fault for not doing things right; do not follow my example in that! - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 00:21:37 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:21:37 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <5537B74A936B4675921A7AAF04846F5D@carncats.ca> I'm not sure of the whole Heraldic Titles versus Order Names with one being registered so it's assumed it can be used for the other... or something... it's late. But would there be an issue with us submitting Raven Herald as the Order of the Raven is already registered to the Barony of Raven's Fort via Ansteorra? Caitrina -----Original Message----- From: Teceangl [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 10:15 PM To: Caitrina many hats MacAndrew Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > Submissions Herald of Tir Righ - Raven's Blood Herald Not gonna happen. The pattern thing's-blood is not a period pattern for heraldic titles. HOWEVER... Raven Herald would seem to be clear. And it's a very period title. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 00:31:40 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:31:40 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <5537B74A936B4675921A7AAF04846F5D@carncats.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <5537B74A936B4675921A7AAF04846F5D@carncats.ca> Message-ID: > I'm not sure of the whole Heraldic Titles versus Order Names with one being > registered so it's assumed it can be used for the other... or something... > it's late. ?But would there be an issue with us submitting Raven Herald as > the Order of the Raven is already registered to the Barony of Raven's Fort > via Ansteorra? What? Where? *heqadthump* I missed that entirely. Yes, that's a problem. Designators (Shire of, Order of, Herald, etc.) are transparent for purposes of conflict, so they've got Raven. My fault for a sloppy conflict check, I'm sorry. We could ask for permission to conflict or we could add a legal descriptor. I suggest first seeking permission - Ansteorra is another heraldic powerhouse kingdom and for the most part its populace is sympathetic to good period style. The typical designators in heraldic titles are colors, of course. While black is timeless, the Tir Righ arms have all that gorgeous blue... Blue Raven, anyone? Besides, Drachenwald has Black Raven. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 00:34:09 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:34:09 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> We've had a suggestion of Vox Tempestas Herald for our Court Herald. The thinking is it is Latin for Voice of the Storm. which would fit in perfectly since the Thrones of Tir Righ are called the Storm Thrones and I personally LOVE it. But is it doable. thoughts anyone? Caitrina _____ From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Caitrina many hats MacAndrew Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 9:26 PM To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ Greetings! Work is being done to give our hard working officers spiffy names and I figured this would be the best place to get the creative minds working on it. Remember these titles would have to be conflict checked, etc, to be registered but we have to start somewhere. Common Herald naming practices looks as though a "Herald" is someone who answers directly to the Principal Herald, whereas a "Pursuivant" is a deputy to someone who answers directly to the Principal Herald. Call it Heraldic Hierarchy. So keeping that in mind...here is what is in the works so far... Submissions Herald of Tir Righ - Raven's Blood Herald Electronic Deputy - Linx Herald Online Consulting (deputy to Red Flame Herald) - Pursuivant Principality Scribe - the Reporting Deputy to Silver Yale - Herald Deputy Herald - (Field and Town Crier) - Herald (with possible Pursuivants down the road for separate Field and Town Cry deputies) Court Herald - Herald So we need all the blanks filled in. Thoughts? Ideas? Caitrina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 00:40:57 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:40:57 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <5537B74A936B4675921A7AAF04846F5D@carncats.ca> Message-ID: No reason to be sorry :) Like I said, it's late, GADS it's late, and besides, this is how the new people learn too! Remember when I asked to be your sponge about 5 years ago? I'm not done learning from you yet :) We'll start on getting permission to conflict tomorrow... or later today as it's already tomorrow. I gotta get some sleep. Good night. C. -----Original Message----- From: Teceangl [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:32 AM To: Caitrina many hats MacAndrew Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > I'm not sure of the whole Heraldic Titles versus Order Names with one being > registered so it's assumed it can be used for the other... or something... > it's late. ?But would there be an issue with us submitting Raven Herald as > the Order of the Raven is already registered to the Barony of Raven's Fort > via Ansteorra? What? Where? *heqadthump* I missed that entirely. Yes, that's a problem. Designators (Shire of, Order of, Herald, etc.) are transparent for purposes of conflict, so they've got Raven. My fault for a sloppy conflict check, I'm sorry. We could ask for permission to conflict or we could add a legal descriptor. I suggest first seeking permission - Ansteorra is another heraldic powerhouse kingdom and for the most part its populace is sympathetic to good period style. The typical designators in heraldic titles are colors, of course. While black is timeless, the Tir Righ arms have all that gorgeous blue... Blue Raven, anyone? Besides, Drachenwald has Black Raven. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 01:55:17 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 01:55:17 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> Message-ID: > We?ve had a suggestion of Vox Tempestas Herald for our Court Herald.? The > thinking is it is Latin for Voice of the Storm? which would fit in perfectly > since the Thrones of Tir Righ are called the Storm Thrones and I personally > LOVE it.? But is it doable? thoughts anyone? Not. First, it's too abstract and follows no period pattern for heraldic titles. Second, Vox isn't going to get registered in a heraldic title again, and grandfathering would be no help since the construction is completely difference, and An Tir released Vox Leonis anyway. ----------------------------------------------- [Vox Viverra Sum Herald] This is returned for lack of documentation of Vox [animal reference] Sum as following examples of period heraldic titles. I can do no better than to quote my predecessor, Master Pietari Pentinpoika Uv, Pelican King of Arms, quoting Mistress Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, Laurel King of Arms: Grammatically the title should be Vox Maris. However, the title has style problems as well as grammatical ones. To quote Mistress Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, Laurel King of Arms: [Artemisia, Kingdom of. Title for Vox Grypis Herald] This is being returned for non period style. In a similar case, Master Da'ud as Laurel said: "[returning Vox Draconis Pursuivant] The previous version, Dragon's Voice Pursuivant, was returned 3/95 for failure to emulate period models as required by RfS III.2.b.iii; translation into Latin doesn't bring it any closer. It was suggested that it might derive from a motto Vox draconis sum 'I am the voice of the dragon', but the period examples noted all comprise the entire motto, and no evidence was presented that Vox draconis sum is a reasonable imitation of a period motto. (Caid, Kingdom of, 10/95 p. 18)" Barring documentation that this follows period exemplar of heraldic titles, it must be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June 1998) No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, Kingdom of, 06/00, R-Trimaris] No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, Kingdom of, 08/01, R-Trimaris] ----------------------------------------------- [Vox Mar Herald] Grammatically the title should be Vox Maris. However, the title has style problems as well as grammatical ones. To quote Mistress Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, Laurel King of Arms: [Artemisia, Kingdom of. Title for Vox Grypis Herald] This is being returned for non period style. In a similar case, Master Da'ud as Laurel said: [returning Vox Draconis Pursuivant] The previous version, Dragon's Voice Pursuivant, was returned 3/95 for failure to emulate period models as required by RfS III.2.b.iii; translation into Latin doesn't bring it any closer. It was suggested that it might derive from a motto Vox draconis sum `I am the voice of the dragon', but the period examples noted allcomprise the entire motto, and no evidence was presented that Vox draconis sum is a reasonable imitation of a period motto. (Caid, Kingdom of, 10/95 p. 18) Barring documentation that this follows period exemplar of heraldic titles, it must be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June 1998) No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, Kingdom of, 06/00, R-Trimaris] ----------------------------------------------- You're throwing darts around blindfolded in a field and hoping to hit a dartboard with this approach. (Daniel de Lincoln calls is driving to some random intersection when you're hungry in hopes there's a restaurant.) Rather than thinking up words and combinations and wondering if they'll be plausible as heraldic titles, FIRST find out how period heraldic titles were created. Juliana's article is _the_ place to start, and then look through Laurel name precedents to see where others went right or wrong so you learn from their mistakes and successes. THEN, armed with knowledge, work up some suggestions that you're pretty sure are registerable. We don't like clients who say, "I want to be Oleandra Fairieslayer of the Purple flames, I made it up, it's my Craft name and numerically perfect, make it period," so why are we doing that to ourselves? We should know better. :) - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 01:57:33 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 01:57:33 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <5537B74A936B4675921A7AAF04846F5D@carncats.ca> Message-ID: > No reason to be sorry :) Like I said, it's late, GADS it's late, and > besides, this is how the new people learn too! ?Remember when I asked to be > your sponge about 5 years ago? ?I'm not done learning from you yet :) Good. I'm not done learning yet, either. We can progress in tandem, unless you manage to catch up or even overtake me. :) - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 07:31:41 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:31:41 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> <4042AF49C5D94F0E93B968F8A490041D@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4BD4524D.5020908@telus.net> Teceangl wrote: >>Thanks Richenda :) We have a FaceBook Group as well for those who prefer >>that means of communication and have posted the link there as well. >> >> > >Please keep discussion here. Social networking sites should never >circumvent the official mailing lists, and if the discussion moves >many of us won't follow it, meaning you'll be taking it away from some >of the expertise available. >Besides, when there's a perfectly good list, it ought to be used. > >- Teceangl > > The trouble I find is that when you have multiple formats for communication, discussions get split between the two so information doesn't get out uniformly. I'm stuck with a slow dial-up connection so I stay clear of facebook and similar sites. I wasn't even aware there was one for Tir Righ heralds. I second Teceangl's request that we keep discussions confined to this list. Alicia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 08:14:13 2010 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 08:14:13 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <5537B74A936B4675921A7AAF04846F5D@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4BD45C45.50704@gmail.com> On 4/25/2010 12:31 AM, Teceangl wrote: >> I'm not sure of the whole Heraldic Titles versus Order Names with one being >> registered so it's assumed it can be used for the other... or something... >> it's late. But would there be an issue with us submitting Raven Herald as >> the Order of the Raven is already registered to the Barony of Raven's Fort >> via Ansteorra? > > What? Where? > > *heqadthump* > I missed that entirely. Yes, that's a problem. Designators (Shire of, > Order of, Herald, etc.) are transparent for purposes of conflict, so > they've got Raven. > My fault for a sloppy conflict check, I'm sorry. > I'm not so sure that is the case here. Given that it's Barony of Raven's Fort, "fort" is fulfilling the same function as "keep" in Canton of Border Keep. Neither "fort" nor "keep" are designators in these names, so they should act as a second element in the name, making it clear. I know that's clear as mud given that "Keep" and "Fort" both can act as designators in some names, particularly old ones. Richenda From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 09:08:21 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:08:21 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> Message-ID: All good learning info and very informative. I'll pass it on to the gentle who was looking into it. He's a newish herald who gets discouraged easily so I won't paste the blindfolded darts part. One of our biggest problems it seems... people being discouraged because they think they need to know where all the info is and how to use it before they can be considered a book herald. At our Heralds meeting last month there were many new people who wanted to learn but many told me later in private messages that they felt they were not worthy to comment on anything or put forth any ideas and so wanted to be voice heralds. It was a sad day for me but one I totally understood. It's why when I stepped down as Lions Blood I stepped away from Heraldry for a more admin position as Chamberlain. Ahem, so, Vox Tempestas is out. Does anyone on the list have ideas? C. -----Original Message----- From: Teceangl [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 1:55 AM To: Caitrina many hats MacAndrew Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > We?ve had a suggestion of Vox Tempestas Herald for our Court Herald.? The > thinking is it is Latin for Voice of the Storm which would fit in perfectly > since the Thrones of Tir Righ are called the Storm Thrones and I personally > LOVE it.? But is it doable thoughts anyone? Not. First, it's too abstract and follows no period pattern for heraldic titles. Second, Vox isn't going to get registered in a heraldic title again, and grandfathering would be no help since the construction is completely difference, and An Tir released Vox Leonis anyway. ----------------------------------------------- [Vox Viverra Sum Herald] This is returned for lack of documentation of Vox [animal reference] Sum as following examples of period heraldic titles. I can do no better than to quote my predecessor, Master Pietari Pentinpoika Uv, Pelican King of Arms, quoting Mistress Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, Laurel King of Arms: Grammatically the title should be Vox Maris. However, the title has style problems as well as grammatical ones. To quote Mistress Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, Laurel King of Arms: [Artemisia, Kingdom of. Title for Vox Grypis Herald] This is being returned for non period style. In a similar case, Master Da'ud as Laurel said: "[returning Vox Draconis Pursuivant] The previous version, Dragon's Voice Pursuivant, was returned 3/95 for failure to emulate period models as required by RfS III.2.b.iii; translation into Latin doesn't bring it any closer. It was suggested that it might derive from a motto Vox draconis sum 'I am the voice of the dragon', but the period examples noted all comprise the entire motto, and no evidence was presented that Vox draconis sum is a reasonable imitation of a period motto. (Caid, Kingdom of, 10/95 p. 18)" Barring documentation that this follows period exemplar of heraldic titles, it must be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June 1998) No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, Kingdom of, 06/00, R-Trimaris] No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, Kingdom of, 08/01, R-Trimaris] ----------------------------------------------- [Vox Mar Herald] Grammatically the title should be Vox Maris. However, the title has style problems as well as grammatical ones. To quote Mistress Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, Laurel King of Arms: [Artemisia, Kingdom of. Title for Vox Grypis Herald] This is being returned for non period style. In a similar case, Master Da'ud as Laurel said: [returning Vox Draconis Pursuivant] The previous version, Dragon's Voice Pursuivant, was returned 3/95 for failure to emulate period models as required by RfS III.2.b.iii; translation into Latin doesn't bring it any closer. It was suggested that it might derive from a motto Vox draconis sum `I am the voice of the dragon', but the period examples noted allcomprise the entire motto, and no evidence was presented that Vox draconis sum is a reasonable imitation of a period motto. (Caid, Kingdom of, 10/95 p. 18) Barring documentation that this follows period exemplar of heraldic titles, it must be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June 1998) No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, Kingdom of, 06/00, R-Trimaris] ----------------------------------------------- You're throwing darts around blindfolded in a field and hoping to hit a dartboard with this approach. (Daniel de Lincoln calls is driving to some random intersection when you're hungry in hopes there's a restaurant.) Rather than thinking up words and combinations and wondering if they'll be plausible as heraldic titles, FIRST find out how period heraldic titles were created. Juliana's article is _the_ place to start, and then look through Laurel name precedents to see where others went right or wrong so you learn from their mistakes and successes. THEN, armed with knowledge, work up some suggestions that you're pretty sure are registerable. We don't like clients who say, "I want to be Oleandra Fairieslayer of the Purple flames, I made it up, it's my Craft name and numerically perfect, make it period," so why are we doing that to ourselves? We should know better. :) - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 09:13:20 2010 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:13:20 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> I'd suggest that you talk to people using the facebook page as a learning list, where links to articles can be posted and discussed. Then you can draw them back here for submissions and other discussions. As for a name for the voice herald, hmmmm. White Saltire herald? You need the white in the title to be clear of Northshield's Saltire herald. I thought drawing a name from a charge on the Tir Righ's arms would be nice for the voice herald (and also has some marshallate connotations). Richenda On 4/25/2010 9:08 AM, Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: > All good learning info and very informative. I'll pass it on to the gentle > who was looking into it. He's a newish herald who gets discouraged easily > so I won't paste the blindfolded darts part. One of our biggest problems it > seems... people being discouraged because they think they need to know where > all the info is and how to use it before they can be considered a book > herald. At our Heralds meeting last month there were many new people who > wanted to learn but many told me later in private messages that they felt > they were not worthy to comment on anything or put forth any ideas and so > wanted to be voice heralds. It was a sad day for me but one I totally > understood. It's why when I stepped down as Lions Blood I stepped away from > Heraldry for a more admin position as Chamberlain. > > Ahem, so, Vox Tempestas is out. Does anyone on the list have ideas? > > C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Teceangl [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 1:55 AM > To: Caitrina many hats MacAndrew > Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org > Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > >> We?ve had a suggestion of Vox Tempestas Herald for our Court Herald. The >> thinking is it is Latin for Voice of the Storm? which would fit in > perfectly >> since the Thrones of Tir Righ are called the Storm Thrones and I > personally >> LOVE it. But is it doable? thoughts anyone? > > Not. First, it's too abstract and follows no period pattern for > heraldic titles. > Second, Vox isn't going to get registered in a heraldic title again, > and grandfathering would be no help since the construction is > completely difference, and An Tir released Vox Leonis anyway. > > ----------------------------------------------- > [Vox Viverra Sum Herald] This is returned for lack of documentation of > Vox [animal reference] Sum as following examples of period heraldic > titles. I can do no better than to quote my predecessor, Master > Pietari Pentinpoika Uv, Pelican King of Arms, quoting Mistress Jaelle > of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, Laurel > King of Arms: > > Grammatically the title should be Vox Maris. However, the title > has style problems as well as grammatical ones. To quote Mistress > Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, > Laurel King of Arms: > > [Artemisia, Kingdom of. Title for Vox Grypis Herald] This is > being returned for non period style. In a similar case, Master Da'ud > as Laurel said: > > "[returning Vox Draconis Pursuivant] The previous version, > Dragon's Voice Pursuivant, was returned 3/95 for failure to emulate > period models as required by RfS III.2.b.iii; translation into Latin > doesn't bring it any closer. It was suggested that it might derive > from a motto Vox draconis sum 'I am the voice of the dragon', but the > period examples noted all comprise the entire motto, and no evidence > was presented that Vox draconis sum is a reasonable imitation of a > period motto. (Caid, Kingdom of, 10/95 p. 18)" > > Barring documentation that this follows period exemplar of > heraldic titles, it must be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June > 1998) > > No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, > Kingdom of, 06/00, R-Trimaris] > > No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, > Kingdom of, 08/01, R-Trimaris] > ----------------------------------------------- > [Vox Mar Herald] Grammatically the title should be Vox Maris. However, > the title has style problems as well as grammatical ones. To quote > Mistress Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud > ibn Auda, Laurel King of Arms: > > [Artemisia, Kingdom of. Title for Vox Grypis Herald] This is being > returned for non period style. In a similar case, Master Da'ud as > Laurel said: > > [returning Vox Draconis Pursuivant] The previous version, > Dragon's Voice Pursuivant, was returned 3/95 for failure to emulate > period models as required by RfS III.2.b.iii; translation into Latin > doesn't bring it any closer. It was suggested that it might derive > from a motto Vox draconis sum `I am the voice of the dragon', but the > period examples noted allcomprise the entire motto, and no evidence > was presented that Vox draconis sum is a reasonable imitation of a > period motto. (Caid, Kingdom of, 10/95 p. 18) > > Barring documentation that this follows period exemplar of > heraldic titles, it must be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June > 1998) > > No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, > Kingdom of, 06/00, R-Trimaris] > ----------------------------------------------- > > > You're throwing darts around blindfolded in a field and hoping to hit > a dartboard with this approach. (Daniel de Lincoln calls is driving to > some random intersection when you're hungry in hopes there's a > restaurant.) > Rather than thinking up words and combinations and wondering if > they'll be plausible as heraldic titles, FIRST find out how period > heraldic titles were created. Juliana's article is _the_ place to > start, and then look through Laurel name precedents to see where > others went right or wrong so you learn from their mistakes and > successes. THEN, armed with knowledge, work up some suggestions that > you're pretty sure are registerable. > > We don't like clients who say, "I want to be Oleandra Fairieslayer of > the Purple flames, I made it up, it's my Craft name and numerically > perfect, make it period," so why are we doing that to ourselves? We > should know better. :) > > - Teceangl From anthony.hawke at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 09:19:29 2010 From: anthony.hawke at shaw.ca (HL Anthony Hawke) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:19:29 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heralds' Reporting Time again -- Due 01 May Message-ID: <4BD46B91.6000907@shaw.ca> I have been politely reminded that it is once again time for reports! So, without further ado, here is the reporting breakdown. Reports are due by the 1st of May, but the sooner the better. All Branch heralds and Pursuivants within a Principality report to your Principality Herald (Bleu Grael, Sanguinarius, Silver Yale) or their designated reporting deputies. All Branch heralds and Pursuivants that are not in a Principality report to me. All deputies of titled Heralds (including deputies of Principality Heralds), please report to them directly. All Heralds and Heralds-at-large who report to Black Lion (Including Principality Heralds), please direct your reports to me. Heralds Extraordinary, while you do not have to report, it would be nice to hear from you. If you are unsure of where you land in this list, please email me and I will attempt to sort it out. -- In Fealty to the Crown and Service to the An Tir College of Heralds, ____________________________________________________________________________ Anthony Demi-Lion; GdS, AA, WOAW Prot?g? to his Excellency, Uilliam mac Aill?n vhic S?amus, OP Facta Omnia Gloria Nihil (The deed is everything. Glory is nothing.) "Per fess sable and Or, a sea-tyger maintaining a rapier inverted counterchanged" From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 09:29:38 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:29:38 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD4524D.5020908@telus.net> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> <4042AF49C5D94F0E93B968F8A490041D@carncats.ca> <4BD4524D.5020908@telus.net> Message-ID: Granted, however we can't discourage anyone from using any means of collaboration they desire to discuss such issues. The SCA College of Heralds Facebook group run by many KWHeralds has this description: "This group is for members of the SCA College of Heralds (aka: anyone that claims to be a herald in any way, shape, or form) to congregate, kibitz, and try to expressively discuss all matters of heraldry." The Tir Righ group was created for the same reason and openly states it's not to take the place of the email list. But out of the 20 members we have so far, 13 of them have never commented on any Herald's email list for their own reasons, some I know, some I can only speculate. But they're talking heraldry on this group, sharing ideas and learning. It's a start and it's my hope that more will feel comfortably enough to start posting to this list. So far it's not happening. I KNOW YOU'RE OUT THERE PEOPLES! . C. _____ From: Judy Harcus [mailto:jdharcus at telus.net] Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 7:32 AM To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Cc: Caitrina many hats MacAndrew Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ Teceangl wrote: Thanks Richenda :) We have a FaceBook Group as well for those who prefer that means of communication and have posted the link there as well. Please keep discussion here. Social networking sites should never circumvent the official mailing lists, and if the discussion moves many of us won't follow it, meaning you'll be taking it away from some of the expertise available. Besides, when there's a perfectly good list, it ought to be used. - Teceangl The trouble I find is that when you have multiple formats for communication, discussions get split between the two so information doesn't get out uniformly. I'm stuck with a slow dial-up connection so I stay clear of facebook and similar sites. I wasn't even aware there was one for Tir Righ heralds. I second Teceangl's request that we keep discussions confined to this list. Alicia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mhood at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 09:36:05 2010 From: mhood at shaw.ca (Mark Hood) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:36:05 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD4524D.5020908@telus.net> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> <4042AF49C5D94F0E93B968F8A490041D@carncats.ca> <4BD4524D.5020908@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BD46F75.2090006@shaw.ca> With all respect: it ain't gonna happen. This list scares people. You have to be a herald, and you have to know what you're talking about before you post anything. Okay, I know that's not true, but it's certainly the feeling of a lot of people. This is the "Official List" of the College of Heralds. The boardroom where the important people meet. The Facebook group is the lunch room. It's an informal gathering of people who are interested, and want to hash-out ideas or thoughts. In fact, it's very much like the SCA College of Heralds Facebook group that was started by Laurel, and contains many of the people here. It's not official, it's just a place to talk. In the same manner that some people aren't going to join a social networking group, many people aren't going to join yet another email list. I see the FB group as a recruiting tool for the Tir Righ heralds, and a place to make them feel comfortable. You can keep conversations in separate topics, rather than one string. You can post pictures. You can convince people that they ARE heralds, after all. You can get more people interested in signing up on the list. Both the email list and the FB group are tools for heralds to use, and perhaps by getting people to use the one, they'll be more interested in the other. uilliam (pursuivant-at-heart) Judy Harcus wrote: > Teceangl wrote: >>> Thanks Richenda :) We have a FaceBook Group as well for those who prefer >>> that means of communication and have posted the link there as well. >>> >> >> Please keep discussion here. Social networking sites should never >> circumvent the official mailing lists, and if the discussion moves >> many of us won't follow it, meaning you'll be taking it away from some >> of the expertise available. >> Besides, when there's a perfectly good list, it ought to be used. >> >> - Teceangl >> > The trouble I find is that when you have multiple formats for > communication, discussions get split between the two so information > doesn't get out uniformly. > I'm stuck with a slow dial-up connection so I stay clear of facebook > and similar sites. I wasn't even aware there was one for Tir Righ > heralds. > I second Teceangl's request that we keep discussions confined to this > list. > > Alicia > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 09:50:38 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:50:38 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> I'd be more inclined towards "Silver Saltire" to match other Tir Righ awards/titles - and it has nice alliteration too ;-) Alicia Richenda du Jardin wrote: > As for a name for the voice herald, hmmmm. White Saltire herald? You > need the white in the title to be clear of Northshield's Saltire > herald. I thought drawing a name from a charge on the Tir Righ's arms > would be nice for the voice herald (and also has some marshallate > connotations). > > Richenda > From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 09:54:24 2010 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:54:24 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BD473C0.4060204@gmail.com> Check precedents -- silver can be tricky to use in titles. Silver wasn't used as a color term in period; it referred to the metal. Richenda On 4/25/2010 9:50 AM, Judy Harcus wrote: > I'd be more inclined towards "Silver Saltire" to match other Tir Righ > awards/titles - and it has nice alliteration too ;-) > > Alicia > > Richenda du Jardin wrote: > >> As for a name for the voice herald, hmmmm. White Saltire herald? You >> need the white in the title to be clear of Northshield's Saltire >> herald. I thought drawing a name from a charge on the Tir Righ's arms >> would be nice for the voice herald (and also has some marshallate >> connotations). >> >> Richenda >> > From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 09:54:55 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:54:55 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD45C45.50704@gmail.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <5537B74A936B4675921A7AAF04846F5D@carncats.ca> <4BD45C45.50704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <468AEB67989D427FB4389F15C3BD7017@carncats.ca> The issue isn't the Barony name but that they have registered the "Order of the Raven" Order being the designator. But in saying that, would permission to conflict be of any help? Raven is a Raven and if the only difference between Order of the Raven and the Raven Herald is the designator, does permission to conflict give us enough to register in accordance with Rfs.V.2.b? I'm starting to look towards White Raven Herald in keeping with Tir Righ colours and the fact that they are very rare and carry a mutant gene... no offence to our present Court Herald :) It looks to be clear. C. -----Original Message----- From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Richenda du Jardin Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 8:14 AM To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ On 4/25/2010 12:31 AM, Teceangl wrote: >> I'm not sure of the whole Heraldic Titles versus Order Names with one being >> registered so it's assumed it can be used for the other... or something... >> it's late. But would there be an issue with us submitting Raven Herald as >> the Order of the Raven is already registered to the Barony of Raven's Fort >> via Ansteorra? > > What? Where? > > *heqadthump* > I missed that entirely. Yes, that's a problem. Designators (Shire of, > Order of, Herald, etc.) are transparent for purposes of conflict, so > they've got Raven. > My fault for a sloppy conflict check, I'm sorry. > I'm not so sure that is the case here. Given that it's Barony of Raven's Fort, "fort" is fulfilling the same function as "keep" in Canton of Border Keep. Neither "fort" nor "keep" are designators in these names, so they should act as a second element in the name, making it clear. I know that's clear as mud given that "Keep" and "Fort" both can act as designators in some names, particularly old ones. Richenda =============================================== Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 09:56:00 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:56:00 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F8517580ABA44F89817748E119C9EDE@carncats.ca> Ooooooh! White Saltire, I like that. Thank you :) -----Original Message----- From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Richenda du Jardin Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 9:13 AM To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ I'd suggest that you talk to people using the facebook page as a learning list, where links to articles can be posted and discussed. Then you can draw them back here for submissions and other discussions. As for a name for the voice herald, hmmmm. White Saltire herald? You need the white in the title to be clear of Northshield's Saltire herald. I thought drawing a name from a charge on the Tir Righ's arms would be nice for the voice herald (and also has some marshallate connotations). Richenda On 4/25/2010 9:08 AM, Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: > All good learning info and very informative. I'll pass it on to the gentle > who was looking into it. He's a newish herald who gets discouraged easily > so I won't paste the blindfolded darts part. One of our biggest problems it > seems... people being discouraged because they think they need to know where > all the info is and how to use it before they can be considered a book > herald. At our Heralds meeting last month there were many new people who > wanted to learn but many told me later in private messages that they felt > they were not worthy to comment on anything or put forth any ideas and so > wanted to be voice heralds. It was a sad day for me but one I totally > understood. It's why when I stepped down as Lions Blood I stepped away from > Heraldry for a more admin position as Chamberlain. > > Ahem, so, Vox Tempestas is out. Does anyone on the list have ideas? > > C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Teceangl [mailto:tierna.britt at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 1:55 AM > To: Caitrina many hats MacAndrew > Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org > Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > >> We've had a suggestion of Vox Tempestas Herald for our Court Herald. The >> thinking is it is Latin for Voice of the Storm. which would fit in > perfectly >> since the Thrones of Tir Righ are called the Storm Thrones and I > personally >> LOVE it. But is it doable. thoughts anyone? > > Not. First, it's too abstract and follows no period pattern for > heraldic titles. > Second, Vox isn't going to get registered in a heraldic title again, > and grandfathering would be no help since the construction is > completely difference, and An Tir released Vox Leonis anyway. > > ----------------------------------------------- > [Vox Viverra Sum Herald] This is returned for lack of documentation of > Vox [animal reference] Sum as following examples of period heraldic > titles. I can do no better than to quote my predecessor, Master > Pietari Pentinpoika Uv, Pelican King of Arms, quoting Mistress Jaelle > of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, Laurel > King of Arms: > > Grammatically the title should be Vox Maris. However, the title > has style problems as well as grammatical ones. To quote Mistress > Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud ibn Auda, > Laurel King of Arms: > > [Artemisia, Kingdom of. Title for Vox Grypis Herald] This is > being returned for non period style. In a similar case, Master Da'ud > as Laurel said: > > "[returning Vox Draconis Pursuivant] The previous version, > Dragon's Voice Pursuivant, was returned 3/95 for failure to emulate > period models as required by RfS III.2.b.iii; translation into Latin > doesn't bring it any closer. It was suggested that it might derive > from a motto Vox draconis sum 'I am the voice of the dragon', but the > period examples noted all comprise the entire motto, and no evidence > was presented that Vox draconis sum is a reasonable imitation of a > period motto. (Caid, Kingdom of, 10/95 p. 18)" > > Barring documentation that this follows period exemplar of > heraldic titles, it must be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June > 1998) > > No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, > Kingdom of, 06/00, R-Trimaris] > > No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, > Kingdom of, 08/01, R-Trimaris] > ----------------------------------------------- > [Vox Mar Herald] Grammatically the title should be Vox Maris. However, > the title has style problems as well as grammatical ones. To quote > Mistress Jaelle of Armida, Laurel Queen of Arms, quoting Master Da'ud > ibn Auda, Laurel King of Arms: > > [Artemisia, Kingdom of. Title for Vox Grypis Herald] This is being > returned for non period style. In a similar case, Master Da'ud as > Laurel said: > > [returning Vox Draconis Pursuivant] The previous version, > Dragon's Voice Pursuivant, was returned 3/95 for failure to emulate > period models as required by RfS III.2.b.iii; translation into Latin > doesn't bring it any closer. It was suggested that it might derive > from a motto Vox draconis sum `I am the voice of the dragon', but the > period examples noted allcomprise the entire motto, and no evidence > was presented that Vox draconis sum is a reasonable imitation of a > period motto. (Caid, Kingdom of, 10/95 p. 18) > > Barring documentation that this follows period exemplar of > heraldic titles, it must be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June > 1998) > > No such documentation was provided this time, either. [Trimaris, > Kingdom of, 06/00, R-Trimaris] > ----------------------------------------------- > > > You're throwing darts around blindfolded in a field and hoping to hit > a dartboard with this approach. (Daniel de Lincoln calls is driving to > some random intersection when you're hungry in hopes there's a > restaurant.) > Rather than thinking up words and combinations and wondering if > they'll be plausible as heraldic titles, FIRST find out how period > heraldic titles were created. Juliana's article is _the_ place to > start, and then look through Laurel name precedents to see where > others went right or wrong so you learn from their mistakes and > successes. THEN, armed with knowledge, work up some suggestions that > you're pretty sure are registerable. > > We don't like clients who say, "I want to be Oleandra Fairieslayer of > the Purple flames, I made it up, it's my Craft name and numerically > perfect, make it period," so why are we doing that to ourselves? We > should know better. :) > > - Teceangl =============================================== Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 09:58:15 2010 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:58:15 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <468AEB67989D427FB4389F15C3BD7017@carncats.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <5537B74A936B4675921A7AAF04846F5D@carncats.ca> <4BD45C45.50704@gmail.com> <468AEB67989D427FB4389F15C3BD7017@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4BD474A7.3020109@gmail.com> I missed that they had Order of the Raven -- that's what I get for answering my e-mail before my morning cup of coffee. Richenda On 4/25/2010 9:54 AM, Caitrina many hats MacAndrew wrote: > The issue isn't the Barony name but that they have registered the "Order of > the Raven" Order being the designator. But in saying that, would > permission to conflict be of any help? Raven is a Raven and if the only > difference between Order of the Raven and the Raven Herald is the > designator, does permission to conflict give us enough to register in > accordance with Rfs.V.2.b? > > I'm starting to look towards White Raven Herald in keeping with Tir Righ > colours and the fact that they are very rare and carry a mutant gene... no > offence to our present Court Herald :) It looks to be clear. > > C. > > -----Original Message----- > From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org > [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Richenda du > Jardin > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 8:14 AM > To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org > Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > > On 4/25/2010 12:31 AM, Teceangl wrote: >>> I'm not sure of the whole Heraldic Titles versus Order Names with one > being >>> registered so it's assumed it can be used for the other... or > something... >>> it's late. But would there be an issue with us submitting Raven Herald > as >>> the Order of the Raven is already registered to the Barony of Raven's > Fort >>> via Ansteorra? >> >> What? Where? >> >> *heqadthump* >> I missed that entirely. Yes, that's a problem. Designators (Shire of, >> Order of, Herald, etc.) are transparent for purposes of conflict, so >> they've got Raven. >> My fault for a sloppy conflict check, I'm sorry. >> > > I'm not so sure that is the case here. Given that it's Barony of Raven's > Fort, "fort" is fulfilling the same function as "keep" in Canton of > Border Keep. Neither "fort" nor "keep" are designators in these names, > so they should act as a second element in the name, making it clear. > > I know that's clear as mud given that "Keep" and "Fort" both can act as > designators in some names, particularly old ones. > > Richenda > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" > (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 09:59:35 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:59:35 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD46F75.2090006@shaw.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <4BD3D637.8010803@gmail.com> <4042AF49C5D94F0E93B968F8A490041D@carncats.ca> <4BD4524D.5020908@telus.net> <4BD46F75.2090006@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <4BD474F7.20105@telus.net> It seems to me more of a way to divide heralds than to unite them. Give people two options, I suspect most will settle on one and stick to it, ignoring the other. You end up with two groups who for the most part don't share information with each other. Due to the limited internet access available where I live, facebook is just not feasible for me. So there is no way I can communicate with those people who only chose that one. I'd much rather people worked on changing people's impression of this list. Alicia Mark Hood wrote: > With all respect: it ain't gonna happen. > > This list scares people. You have to be a herald, and you have to > know what you're talking about before you post anything. > > Okay, I know that's not true, but it's certainly the feeling of a lot > of people. This is the "Official List" of the College of Heralds. > The boardroom where the important people meet. > > The Facebook group is the lunch room. It's an informal gathering of > people who are interested, and want to hash-out ideas or thoughts. In > fact, it's very much like the SCA College of Heralds Facebook group > that was started by Laurel, and contains many of the people here. > It's not official, it's just a place to talk. In the same manner that > some people aren't going to join a social networking group, many > people aren't going to join yet another email list. > > I see the FB group as a recruiting tool for the Tir Righ heralds, and > a place to make them feel comfortable. You can keep conversations in > separate topics, rather than one string. You can post pictures. You > can convince people that they ARE heralds, after all. You can get > more people interested in signing up on the list. > > Both the email list and the FB group are tools for heralds to use, and > perhaps by getting people to use the one, they'll be more interested > in the other. > > uilliam > (pursuivant-at-heart) > > Judy Harcus wrote: > >> Teceangl wrote: >> >>>> Thanks Richenda :) We have a FaceBook Group as well for those who >>>> prefer >>>> that means of communication and have posted the link there as well. >>>> >>> >>> >>> Please keep discussion here. Social networking sites should never >>> circumvent the official mailing lists, and if the discussion moves >>> many of us won't follow it, meaning you'll be taking it away from some >>> of the expertise available. >>> Besides, when there's a perfectly good list, it ought to be used. >>> >>> - Teceangl >>> >> >> The trouble I find is that when you have multiple formats for >> communication, discussions get split between the two so information >> doesn't get out uniformly. >> I'm stuck with a slow dial-up connection so I stay clear of facebook >> and similar sites. I wasn't even aware there was one for Tir Righ >> heralds. >> I second Teceangl's request that we keep discussions confined to this >> list. >> >> Alicia >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> =============================================== >> Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list >> Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org >> Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line >> "help" (without quotes) >> or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org >> > > From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 10:25:50 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:25:50 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD473C0.4060204@gmail.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <4BD473C0.4060204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BD47B1E.2020002@telus.net> We just registered "Silver Pillar Herald" (Dec 2009). The use of "Silver" is also grandfathered to Tir Righ for both heraldic titles and order names. However we don't have to rely totally on that since the May 2008 Cover Letter states: "Silver in order and award names: The August 2005 cover letter says that "orders named for heraldic charges or for items that, while not found in period as heraldic charges, may be used as heraldic charges...may contain the ordinary color names of any heraldic tincture." This includes the use of Silver as the ordinary color name of argent." Alicia Richenda du Jardin wrote: > Check precedents -- silver can be tricky to use in titles. Silver > wasn't used as a color term in period; it referred to the metal. > > Richenda > > > On 4/25/2010 9:50 AM, Judy Harcus wrote: > >> I'd be more inclined towards "Silver Saltire" to match other Tir Righ >> awards/titles - and it has nice alliteration too ;-) >> >> Alicia >> >> Richenda du Jardin wrote: >> >>> As for a name for the voice herald, hmmmm. White Saltire herald? You >>> need the white in the title to be clear of Northshield's Saltire >>> herald. I thought drawing a name from a charge on the Tir Righ's arms >>> would be nice for the voice herald (and also has some marshallate >>> connotations). >>> >>> Richenda >>> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anthony.hawke at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 10:28:01 2010 From: anthony.hawke at shaw.ca (HL Anthony Hawke) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:28:01 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD47B1E.2020002@telus.net> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <4BD473C0.4060204@gmail.com> <4BD47B1E.2020002@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BD47BA1.4090005@shaw.ca> I've been partial to inkpot or inkwell, provided that it can be proven as a period object.... -- In Fealty to the Crown and Service to the An Tir College of Heralds, ____________________________________________________________________________ Anthony Demi-Lion; GdS, AA, WOAW Prot?g? to his Excellency, Uilliam mac Aill?n vhic S?amus, OP Facta Omnia Gloria Nihil (The deed is everything. Glory is nothing.) "Per fess sable and Or, a sea-tyger maintaining a rapier inverted counterchanged" From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 10:38:47 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:38:47 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD47B1E.2020002@telus.net> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <4BD473C0.4060204@gmail.com> <4BD47B1E.2020002@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BD47E27.8070704@telus.net> Further to this, I just looked up 'silver (adj.) in the online MED (Middle English Dictionary which is at http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/lookup.html for those who don't know). The description at the top gives the variations: "(a) Made of silver; ~ foil; ~ plate, coins made of silver; souen ~ sede, fig. to give bribes; (b) like silver; lustrous or gleaming like silver; also fig.; ~ scaled, with silvery scales; ~ worm, a glowworm; (c) her. argent; (d) in surnames and place names [see Smith PNElem.2.119]." I found (c) interesting as it mentions being equivalent to argent in heraldry. Under (c) I found: examples of the word 'silver' used in heraldic blazons including in the field (so it's not just referring to a charge made out of silver). "(c) (1456) Doc.in Nicholl Ironmongers 26: Siluer, a cheueron of Gowles, sitte betwene three Gaddes of Stele of Asure. (c1460) Bk.Arms in Anc.5 (Hrl 2169) 188: John Olney beryth gowlys besaunte..ij leberdys sylwys crownyd wt gowlys armyd wt asewre. (c1460) Bk.Arms in Anc.7 (Hrl 2169) 186: [Party silver and gules with] ij bewerys sylwyr and gowlys countergolorys. (c1466) Paston 2.552: Which Raffe senior bare armes as his father, and Robert the younger bare silver flowret azure. (c1475) Exped.Edw.IV (Arms 2M.16) 2a: Therll of Northumberland..Cressant siluer; Therll of Ryuers..scaleipp siluer. " Alicia Judy Harcus wrote: > We just registered "Silver Pillar Herald" (Dec 2009). The use of > "Silver" is also grandfathered to Tir Righ for both heraldic titles > and order names. > > However we don't have to rely totally on that since the May 2008 Cover > Letter states: > "Silver in order and award names: The August 2005 cover letter says > that "orders named for heraldic charges or for items that, while not > found in period as heraldic charges, may be used as heraldic > charges...may contain the ordinary color names of any heraldic > tincture." This includes the use of Silver as the ordinary color name > of argent." > > Alicia > > Richenda du Jardin wrote: > >> Check precedents -- silver can be tricky to use in titles. Silver >> wasn't used as a color term in period; it referred to the metal. >> >> Richenda >> >> >> On 4/25/2010 9:50 AM, Judy Harcus wrote: >> >>> I'd be more inclined towards "Silver Saltire" to match other Tir Righ >>> awards/titles - and it has nice alliteration too ;-) >>> >>> Alicia >>> >>> Richenda du Jardin wrote: >>> >>>> As for a name for the voice herald, hmmmm. White Saltire herald? You >>>> need the white in the title to be clear of Northshield's Saltire >>>> herald. I thought drawing a name from a charge on the Tir Righ's arms >>>> would be nice for the voice herald (and also has some marshallate >>>> connotations). >>>> >>>> Richenda >>>> >>> >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >=============================================== >Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list >Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) >or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 11:23:07 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:23:07 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD47BA1.4090005@shaw.ca> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <4BD473C0.4060204@gmail.com> <4BD47B1E.2020002@telus.net> <4BD47BA1.4090005@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <4BD4888B.2020301@telus.net> The Pic Dic lists "Ink Bottle" and gives variations "ink flask", "ink horn", and "ink well" as well as "ink pot" (which it says is 'more ornate and less portable than a standard ink bottle; it also says 'though a period artifact, its use a charge seems unique to Society heraldry'.) I can't find anything to conflict with "Ink--- Herald" (whether Inkpot, Inkwell, Inkflask, Inkhorn, Inkbottle). Of the various names, 'inkhorn' is the only one that really appeals to me at all. I found a few variant spellings for Inkhorn in the MED: inkehorn, ynkhorn, ynkorne, incorne as well as inkhorn (the latter dated ?c.1475, so it appears it may be a period spelling). Alicia HL Anthony Hawke wrote: > I've been partial to inkpot or inkwell, provided that it can be proven > as a period object.... > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tomas at noaharney.com Sun Apr 25 15:07:40 2010 From: tomas at noaharney.com (Tomas) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:07:40 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> Message-ID: <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> Greetings; At the Heralds meeting last month I suggested Silver Saltire, and very much like that name. Especially since we already have Silver Yale, and are talking about other Silver things. Another neat name might be, since we can't have Vox Tempestas, could we just have Storm Herald? That would be a good name for our court herald. Also, are we aloud to use local creatures? Perhaps Spirit Bear Herald (Or Kermode Herald) for one of our heralds. Also, what is the form required for Scribe names? -Tomas de Courcy -------------------------------------------------- From: "Judy Harcus" Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 9:50 AM To: Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > I'd be more inclined towards "Silver Saltire" to match other Tir Righ > awards/titles - and it has nice alliteration too ;-) > > Alicia > > Richenda du Jardin wrote: > >> As for a name for the voice herald, hmmmm. White Saltire herald? You need >> the white in the title to be clear of Northshield's Saltire herald. I >> thought drawing a name from a charge on the Tir Righ's arms would be nice >> for the voice herald (and also has some marshallate connotations). >> >> Richenda >> > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" > (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 16:24:02 2010 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:24:02 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> Message-ID: <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> On 4/25/2010 3:07 PM, Tomas wrote: > Greetings; > > At the Heralds meeting last month I suggested Silver Saltire, and very > much like that name. Especially since we already have Silver Yale, and > are talking about other Silver things. > > Another neat name might be, since we can't have Vox Tempestas, could we > just have Storm Herald? That would be a good name for our court herald. > Also, are we aloud to use local creatures? Perhaps Spirit Bear Herald > (Or Kermode Herald) for one of our heralds. Also, what is the form > required for Scribe names? > To construct a heraldic title, you need to demonstrate that it follows a period form of construction. I don't see any way in which Spirit Bear could be constructed following period practices (nor is it actually a local creature - more like a minor deity of a sort, which also would place it out of reach). Silver Bear would be a possible construction you could justify. Richenda From bear_necessities at telus.net Sun Apr 25 16:31:34 2010 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:31:34 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net><51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: Richenda wrote: > To construct a heraldic title, you need to demonstrate that it follows a > period form of construction. I don't see any way in which Spirit Bear > could be constructed following period practices (nor is it actually a > local creature - more like a minor deity of a sort, which also would place > it out of reach). Silver Bear would be a possible construction you could > justify. Oddly enough, it is actually the unofficial name of a local creature! The spirit bear is also known as the Kermode bear, which is actually a black bear with some kind of gene anomaly. Their population lives on a BC island. White Bear would have been a good alternative, but there is a registered household name of Fellowship of the White Bear.... Doireann From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 16:39:39 2010 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:39:39 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net><51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BD4D2BB.1040907@gmail.com> On 4/25/2010 4:31 PM, Nancy Carr Zupanic wrote: > Richenda wrote: >> To construct a heraldic title, you need to demonstrate that it follows >> a period form of construction. I don't see any way in which Spirit >> Bear could be constructed following period practices (nor is it >> actually a local creature - more like a minor deity of a sort, which >> also would place it out of reach). Silver Bear would be a possible >> construction you could justify. > > Oddly enough, it is actually the unofficial name of a local creature! I'm sure it is -- but is the modern, unofficial (and possibly translated from a native language), which makes less likely to register. We don't have any evidence that the creature was known in period by any name and we can't support the construction spirit x. That's why I suggested an alternate name. > The spirit bear is also known as the Kermode bear, which is actually a > black bear with some kind of gene anomaly. Their population lives on a > BC island. White Bear would have been a good alternative, but there is a > registered household name of Fellowship of the White Bear.... > That would be a conflict, but Silver Bear would be clear of it. I haven't conflict-checked it as I've been out all day. Richenda From bear_necessities at telus.net Sun Apr 25 16:43:42 2010 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:43:42 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD4D2BB.1040907@gmail.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net><51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> <4BD4D2BB.1040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: Richenda wrote: > I'm sure it is -- but is the modern, unofficial (and possibly translated > from a native language), which makes less likely to register. We don't > have any evidence that the creature was known in period by any name and > we can't support the construction spirit x. That's why I suggested an > alternate name. I know, it is a new world critter. Well, sort of... Dori From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 17:54:08 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:54:08 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> Message-ID: <4BD4E430.2080109@telus.net> Storm and Thunder are both already taken as Heraldic names, and Tempest as an Order name (which conflicts with Heraldic names). Note that these are acceptable names for heraldic titles because they are also valid surnames (one of the categories of heraldic titles are those based on a surname). Alicia Tomas wrote: > Greetings; > > At the Heralds meeting last month I suggested Silver Saltire, and very > much like that name. Especially since we already have Silver Yale, > and are talking about other Silver things. > > Another neat name might be, since we can't have Vox Tempestas, could > we just have Storm Herald? That would be a good name for our court > herald. Also, are we aloud to use local creatures? Perhaps Spirit > Bear Herald (Or Kermode Herald) for one of our heralds. Also, what is > the form required for Scribe names? > > -Tomas de Courcy > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Judy Harcus" > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 9:50 AM > To: > Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > >> I'd be more inclined towards "Silver Saltire" to match other Tir Righ >> awards/titles - and it has nice alliteration too ;-) >> >> Alicia >> >> Richenda du Jardin wrote: >> >>> As for a name for the voice herald, hmmmm. White Saltire herald? You >>> need the white in the title to be clear of Northshield's Saltire >>> herald. I thought drawing a name from a charge on the Tir Righ's >>> arms would be nice for the voice herald (and also has some >>> marshallate connotations). >>> >>> Richenda >>> >> >> >> =============================================== >> Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list >> Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org >> Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" >> (without quotes) >> or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" > (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 17:55:58 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:55:58 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BD4E49E.5070704@telus.net> I suspect this conflicts with "Silver Bear Rapier Company". Alicia Richenda du Jardin wrote: > > To construct a heraldic title, you need to demonstrate that it follows > a period form of construction. I don't see any way in which Spirit > Bear could be constructed following period practices (nor is it > actually a local creature - more like a minor deity of a sort, which > also would place it out of reach). Silver Bear would be a possible > construction you could justify. > > Richenda > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" > (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 18:16:15 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 18:16:15 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD4E49E.5070704@telus.net> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> <4BD4E49E.5070704@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BD4E95F.9020208@telus.net> One suggestion I had for a voice herald is "Silver Peacock" (there are various different period spellings) because peacock are not only flashy looking but they are LOUD. Alicia From bear_necessities at telus.net Sun Apr 25 19:31:35 2010 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:31:35 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD4E95F.9020208@telus.net> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com><4BD4E49E.5070704@telus.net> <4BD4E95F.9020208@telus.net> Message-ID: <82E78E36BF00457282E1F50ECADFF85E@NancyPC> Alicia wrote: > One suggestion I had for a voice herald is "Silver Peacock" (there are > various different period spellings) because peacock are not only flashy > looking but they are LOUD. Ohhhhhh. Lovely. Dori From anthony.hawke at shaw.ca Sun Apr 25 20:20:32 2010 From: anthony.hawke at shaw.ca (HL Anthony Hawke) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 20:20:32 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <82E78E36BF00457282E1F50ECADFF85E@NancyPC> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> <4BD4E49E.5070704@telus.net> <4BD4E95F.9020208@telus.net> <82E78E36BF00457282E1F50ECADFF85E@NancyPC> Message-ID: <4BD50680.3050101@shaw.ca> Nancy Carr Zupanic wrote: > Alicia wrote: >> One suggestion I had for a voice herald is "Silver Peacock" (there >> are various different period spellings) because peacock are not only >> flashy looking but they are LOUD. > > Ohhhhhh. Lovely. > > Dori *sigh*... There goes another of my ideas.... :( *IF* the Tir Righ College decides *not* to go with 'Silver Peacock', I would like to use it for an upcoming little 'project' of mine in the An Tir College.... There's a commonly used Heraldic title that really isn't a title at all, and 'Sable Peacock' would have fit it perfectly, provided that it didn't conflict.... -- In Fealty to the Crown and Service to the An Tir College of Heralds, ____________________________________________________________________________ Anthony Demi-Lion; GdS, AA, WOAW Prot?g? to his Excellency, Uilliam mac Aill?n vhic S?amus, OP Facta Omnia Gloria Nihil (The deed is everything. Glory is nothing.) "Per fess sable and Or, a sea-tyger maintaining a rapier inverted counterchanged" From tomas at noaharney.com Sun Apr 25 20:42:40 2010 From: tomas at noaharney.com (Tomas) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 20:42:40 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD4E49E.5070704@telus.net> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan><4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> <4BD4E49E.5070704@telus.net> Message-ID: Perhaps we could ask the person who has it registered (Jean de Clermont) for permission to conflict. Does the animal need to have been known in Period to use it? Also, if last names are appropriate for heralds, perhaps we could ask Viscountess Amanda if we could use Kendal Herald to honor her family? -Tomas -------------------------------------------------- From: "Judy Harcus" Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 5:55 PM To: "Richenda du Jardin" Cc: Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ > I suspect this conflicts with "Silver Bear Rapier Company". > Alicia > > Richenda du Jardin wrote: > >> >> To construct a heraldic title, you need to demonstrate that it follows a >> period form of construction. I don't see any way in which Spirit Bear >> could be constructed following period practices (nor is it actually a >> local creature - more like a minor deity of a sort, which also would >> place it out of reach). Silver Bear would be a possible construction you >> could justify. >> >> Richenda >> >> =============================================== >> Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list >> Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org >> Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" >> (without quotes) >> or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org >> > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" > (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org From bear_necessities at telus.net Sun Apr 25 20:44:15 2010 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 20:44:15 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan><4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com><4BD4E49E.5070704@telus.net> Message-ID: Thomas wrote: > Also, if last names are appropriate for heralds, perhaps we could ask > Viscountess Amanda if we could use Kendal Herald to honor her family? That is a really sweet idea... Dori From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Apr 25 21:09:44 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:09:44 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net> <51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan><4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> <4BD4E49E.5070704@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BD51208.9000008@telus.net> Tomas wrote: > Perhaps we could ask the person who has it registered (Jean de > Clermont) for permission to conflict. That depends on whether we can track Jean down. I tried googling "Silver Bear Rapier Company" and only got links related to the registration of the name (it was registered in 1991). It appears "Jean de Clermont" received an Award of Arms in 1991. He registered a personal device and a badge for the rapier company in 1992 but that's eight years ago. With no additional awards since then, I suspect Jean may no longer be playing, though we could contact people in the East Kingdom to see if they can locate him if we decided we really wanted to use "Silver Bear" as a herald's title. > Does the animal need to have been known in Period to use it? Yes, the animal would need to have been known in Europe in Period. I'm a bit hesitant to use some of the suggested Bear names. The Barony of Seagirt has the "Order of the Bear" and the description in the OP says "Awarded to adolescent gentles, members are selected by recommendation to the Baron and Baroness of Seagirt, in three categories. The Silver Bear is for arts and sciences, the Golden Bear is for service, and the Black Bear is for martial prowess and skill." So although they haven't registered Silver Bear and Black Bear so there's no conflict issue, I personally don't feel comfortable using them. Alicia From duncan1466 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 26 21:05:35 2010 From: duncan1466 at yahoo.com (Duncan Darroch) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <4BD4D2BB.1040907@gmail.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net><51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> <4BD4D2BB.1040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <541913.48075.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Greetings My Brother and Sister Heralds, I like the idea of White Saltaire over White Bear and the idea of Blue Raven works as well. Could someone please re-educate me as to why we are not using Heraldic colours white equates argent... blue equates azure (sorry its been awhile)... Regards, Duncan Darroch, Herald et Large Shire of Ramsgaard Personal Blazon: Argent, two compass stars in fess and on a point pointed ploye vert a compass star argent. From jdharcus at telus.net Mon Apr 26 21:28:37 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:28:37 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Heraldic Titles for Tir Righ In-Reply-To: <541913.48075.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <8E84D2BC9C4F4699B441DEFD3A8B1CD1@carncats.ca> <27EAADDFCCE243028877373B6A4EEA55@carncats.ca> <4BD46A20.9090107@gmail.com> <4BD472DE.6040206@telus.net><51A2D0A7FFC94EBFB87F7AD212DF882F@Aslan> <4BD4CF12.4040100@gmail.com> <4BD4D2BB.1040907@gmail.com> <541913.48075.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BD667F5.4090703@telus.net> We are not using heraldic colors because Laurel has stated a precedent otherwise. I'm pretty sure there's a better precedent somewhere but here's what I found most easily: " [Sable Ferret Herald] This title is being returned for use of Sable in a heraldic title. [Sable Roundel Herald] While heraldic titles of the type are no longer generally acceptable unless the tincture is specified with an everyday word, Ansteorra has already several heralds' titles of the type Sable . [Ansteorra, Kingdom of, 06/00, A-Ansteorra] As Trimaris has no heraldic titles including Sable already registered, they cannot call on the Grandfather Clause. As such, this submission must be returned. [Trimaris, Kingdom of, 10/01 , R-Trimaris]" Alicia Duncan Darroch wrote: >Greetings My Brother and Sister Heralds, > >I like the idea of White Saltaire over White Bear and the idea of Blue Raven works as well. Could someone please re-educate me as to why we are not using Heraldic colours white equates argent... blue equates azure (sorry its been awhile)... > >Regards, >Duncan Darroch, >Herald et Large >Shire of Ramsgaard > > >Personal Blazon: Argent, two compass stars in fess and on a point >pointed ploye vert a compass star argent. > > > >=============================================== >Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list >Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) >or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tomas at noaharney.com Tue Apr 27 07:08:13 2010 From: tomas at noaharney.com (Tomas) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:08:13 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Roll of Arms Message-ID: <3234EA16316E40D2A9BDC735B4706332@Aslan> I was browsing rolls of arms and came across this one http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Habsburger_Pfau_1555.jpg from 1555. I think this would be an amazing thing to do for Tir Righ when we go for kingdom, or even as a page in the next Greate Booke. I'm not sure how many we'd want to put in it, but especially the Lions of An Tir and royal peers, maybe all peers. -Tomas de Courcy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: