From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 17:43:54 2010 From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 17:43:54 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] crosses Message-ID: Hi all, Just double-checking a badge for our Shire and came across something that hadn't occurred to me until just now: what's the conflict ruling on different types of crosses? For instance - and this is the salient bit - would a *cross formy quadrate sable *conflict with a *cross of Santiago sable*? They're quite visually different - the cross formy being equal-armed, for a start - but that's not always a sufficient difference. Both badges would be fieldless. The potential conflict is in the West, so if I can track him down I can probably get permission to conflict (since it's unlikely his badge would be confused with that of a shire in Tir Righ), but I'd rather clear it if possible. Thanks! Wulfstan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdharcus at telus.net Tue Jun 1 20:51:20 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 20:51:20 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] crosses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C05D538.9060008@telus.net> The information you need is in the May 2009 Cover Letter http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/05/09-05cl.html (I suggest you bookmark this). This letter includes an article by Wreath dividing crosses into different families and granting a substantial difference between the families. Although it doesn't include all possible crosses, it does include most. A cross formy and cross of Santiago are in different families so would not conflict. Alicia Wulfstan Hrafnsson wrote: > Hi all, > > Just double-checking a badge for our Shire and came across something > that hadn't occurred to me until just now: what's the conflict ruling > on different types of crosses? For instance - and this is the salient > bit - would a cross formy quadrate sable conflict with a cross of > Santiago sable? They're quite visually different - the cross formy > being equal-armed, for a start - but that's not always a sufficient > difference. Both badges would be fieldless. The potential conflict > is in the West, so if I can track him down I can probably get > permission to conflict (since it's unlikely his badge would be > confused with that of a shire in Tir Righ), but I'd rather clear it if > possible. > > Thanks! > > Wulfstan > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >=============================================== >Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list >Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) >or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 02:11:15 2010 From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 02:11:15 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ordinary confusion Message-ID: Hi all, Insomnia tonight turned into a chance to get some work done. I'm running a conflict check for a lady who would like to submit the following device: Azure, three compass stars and a chief triangular Or. I decided to work on the stars first, and looked under "Star - Compass Star", which referred me to "Mullet". Looking under "Mullet - Or" (including Charged and Uncharged, 1, 2 and 3, and sole- and group primary and secondary) invariably brought me a long list of "unknown record" entries with what looked like fragments of blazon terms and a handful of readable entries. I'm not sure what to do with these unknown records, how to get past them, or what, if anything, they mean. So I'm stumped for the moment on that one. She would also like to submit as a badge: Azure, a compass star Or. But sadly, it's taken: - Paul of Sunriver - The following device associated with this name was registered in August of 1982 (via the West) : *Azure , a compass star Or .* Alternately, we'd talked about a fieldless compass star Or, but as far as I can see that's still only 1 CD from the above. Maybe doable with a 'permission to conflict' letter if we can track the gentle down? I've also suggested (just tonight): (Fieldless), a compass star per pale azure and Or. I think that should get past the nearest similarity I found: - Jaida bint Salim - The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of 2002 (via the Middle) : *(Fieldless) A mullet per pale azure and vert * (1 CD for fieldless, 1 CD for 50% or more tincture difference) I've also suggested a different tincture division (per fess or per bend) to hopefully get another CD as a buffer. Thoughts - especially on all those "unknown records" would be appreciated. Wulfstan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdharcus at telus.net Wed Jun 2 07:08:39 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 07:08:39 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ordinary confusion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0665E7.2000304@telus.net> I've run into the unknown records before but usually it works the next time I check. Try again and see if you still have the problem. It's not showing up for me. Compass stars, compass roses, mullets and suns all have the potential of conflicting with each other. A compass star doesn't conflict with a mullet of the default 5 points but will with all others. Compass stars also conflict with suns, so you need to check there as well. If the compass star is on a field, you need to check against compass roses on the same field (you get one CD between a compass star and a compass rose but need a second; fieldless or change of field will give you the second one). Relevant precedents: [comparing a mullet of six points vs. a compass star] There is ... [no CD] for type of the primary charge: There is no type difference between the compass stars and the mullets of six points. Because of the unusual (and non-period) design of compass stars, with their four greater and four lesser points, they are considered as variants of both mullets of four points and mullets of eight points. There is no type difference between mullets of six points and mullets of eight points and, hence, no difference between mullets of six points and compass stars. [Brian Sigfridsson von Niedersachsen, 07/03, R-Atenveldt] [Mara Sutherland, LoAR 10/2004, Meridies-R] <>[mullets vs. compass stars] ... a second CD between the default mullets of five points and compass stars. RfS X.4.e states that "A charge not used in period armory will be considered different in type if its shape in normal depiction is significantly different." Compass stars are not used in period armory and thus must be compared with mullets of five points on visual grounds. They have sufficient visual difference to be given a CD. [Asad de Barcelona, 10/03 , A-?thelmearc] [there's ...no difference between suns and multi-pointed mullets --- which includes compass stars" [Friedrich von Rabenstein, 6/93, R-Caid] Precedent holds that a compass star within an annulet has no difference from a compass rose: "There is no difference given between a compass rose and a compass star within an annulet" (LoAR June 2000). You may also want to note: ... there is no difference between a compass star and a riven star per the LoAR of April 2001. [Iamys of Loch Cairn, 01/02 , R-Meridies] Alicia Wulfstan Hrafnsson wrote: > Hi all, > > Insomnia tonight turned into a chance to get some work done. I'm > running a conflict check for a lady who would like to submit the > following device: > > Azure, three compass stars and a chief triangular Or. > > I decided to work on the stars first, and looked under "Star - Compass > Star", which referred me to "Mullet". > > Looking under "Mullet - Or" (including Charged and Uncharged, 1, 2 and > 3, and sole- and group primary and secondary) invariably brought me a > long list of "unknown record" entries with what looked like fragments > of blazon terms and a handful of readable entries. I'm not sure what > to do with these unknown records, how to get past them, or what, if > anything, they mean. So I'm stumped for the moment on that one. > > She would also like to submit as a badge: > > Azure, a compass star Or. > > But sadly, it's taken: > > * Paul of Sunriver > > > o The following device associated with this name was > registered in August of 1982 (via the West) > : > Azure > , > a compass star > > Or . > > Alternately, we'd talked about a fieldless compass star Or, but as far > as I can see that's still only 1 CD from the above. Maybe doable with > a 'permission to conflict' letter if we can track the gentle down? > > I've also suggested (just tonight): > > (Fieldless), a compass star per pale azure and Or. > > I think that should get past the nearest similarity I found: > > * Jaida bint Salim > > > o The following badge associated with this name was > registered in January of 2002 (via the Middle) > : > (Fieldless > ) > A mullet > > per pale > > azure > > and vert > > > (1 CD for fieldless, 1 CD for 50% or more tincture difference) > > I've also suggested a different tincture division (per fess or per > bend) to hopefully get another CD as a buffer. > > Thoughts - especially on all those "unknown records" would be appreciated. > > Wulfstan > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >=============================================== >Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list >Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) >or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tierna.britt at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 02:47:30 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 02:47:30 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Irreverent blazons Message-ID: It's late and I've been sloughing through heraldry and words too long. My brain wandered off and got into trouble when I wasn't paying attention. The motif of 'per bend, an X and a Y' is seen in late period German armory (reference Johann Siebmachers Wappenbuch von 1605, linked from http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/german.shtml ). 'Per fess, an X and a Y' is also seen in German heraldry, and occasionally English. (Note that charges around an ordinary in period appear to have always been of the same type.) So.... Does that mean you could have: a star and a chicken and blazon it 'a mullet and a pullet' a vertical stripe and a wooden hammer and blazon it 'a pallet and a mallet' a cup and an ornate castle and blazon it 'a chalice and a palace' a stone and a means of securing a door and blazon it 'a rock and a lock' a transport vehicle and a fire-breathing monster and blazon it 'a wagon and a dragon' a domestic canine and a toothed wheel and blazon it 'a dog and a cog' a pair of hosen and a small wild canid and blazon it 'socks and a fox' a piece of footgear and a musical instrument and blazon it 'a boot and a lute' a gaming cube and a sight organ and blazon it 'a die and an eye' a solar entity and a wine cask and blazon it 'a sun and a tun' For that matter, if a default crane in its vigilance maintained a rock, and a default roc maintains an elephant, and a default elephant maintains a castle on its back, could you register 'a crane maintaining a roc maintaining an elephant maintaining a castle'? Would you want to? (Blame this one on Daniel de Lincoln; I 'borrowed' it from him.) Back to the grindstone, - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 04:34:32 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 04:34:32 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ordinary confusion In-Reply-To: <4C0665E7.2000304@telus.net> References: <4C0665E7.2000304@telus.net> Message-ID: > I've run into the unknown records before but usually it works the next time > I check.? Try again and see if you still have the problem.? It's not showing > up for me. Seeing those messages is frequently a good sign. It means the database is being updated. Give it a couple of hours and go back in for another try. Unfortunately, neither of the alternate O&A sites seems recommendable. heraldsnet.org is buggy and wgz.org is seriously out of date. Stick with oanda.sca.org > Compass stars, compass roses, mullets and suns all have the potential of > conflicting with each other. > A compass star doesn't conflict with a mullet of the default 5 points but > will with all others. > Compass stars also conflict with suns, so you need to check there as well. Under the right circumstances, an elephant 'conflicts with' a mullet. :) Degrees of difference are the better way to think. A compass star can easily conflict with a mullet of five points if the only CD between the armories is type of the mullet, because they get significant difference (CD-level) but not substantial (complete type difference to be clear by X.2.). So Alicia was about right in that you must look under suns and mullets and compass roses, as those are the potential conflicting charges. You can't automatically skip anything in those categories but you can keep guaranteed differences in mind while checking. Another category to remember: estoiles. Significant but not substantial difference. The same goes for demi-suns and any mullet or sun, you get one CD under X.4.e. > If the compass star is on a field, you need to check against compass roses > on the same field (you get one CD between a compass star and a compass rose > but need a second; fieldless or change of field will give you the second > one). Degree of difference here is significant, for the addition of the annulet. Since that's a definite CD and changing the field is a definite CD, as Alicia says you need only check matching fields when looking at compass roses. > Relevant precedents: Add one of my favorites: There is another CD for changing the type of mullet from a mullet of eight points to a mullet of five points. The rules for change of type of mullets follow the rules for change of number of charges. Mullets of n points will get a CD from mullets of m points if RfS X.4.f gives a CD for changing the number of charges from n to m. [Kouac Myklos, 02/2002, A-Ansteorra] Always count the minor points, unless comparing a compass star to a mullet of four points. [a mullet of four points elongated to base vs. a compass star] There is no difference between a mullet of four points and a compass star per the LoAR of January 2001: "As neither a compass star nor a mullet of four points are period charges, and they differ only by the addition of the lesser points, there is not a CD between a mullet of four points and a compass star." There is also no difference for the slight artistic variant in elongating the bottom point of a mullet. [Catherine Diana de Chamb?ry, 05/2003, R-Atenveldt] And one affirming difference from standard estoiles: [Counter-ermine, three estoiles Or] This does not conflict with the Counts of Celje (important non-SCA arms), Azure, three mullets of six points Or. There is one CD for changing the field. The SCA has consistently held, since the Cover Letter for the June 1991 LoAR, that mullets should be given a CD from estoiles (in the estoile's standard depiction, with six wavy rays). [Giovanni Basilio de Castronovo, 10/2002, A-Lochac] > Azure, three compass stars and a chief triangular Or. Easy check. Remember what IS a difference and you can streamline things considerably. Changing the field from anything that isn't plain azure is a CD. Changing from any other number than three in the group is a CD. Changing the tincture or division of the primary charge group is a CD. Having added a secondary charge group is a CD. Changing the type of the secondary charge is a CD. Changing the tincture or division of the secondary charge is a CD. Changing the number of secondary charges is a CD (yes, you get a CD for number between one chief and any other number of anything else - semy of annulets versus a chief triangular is a CD for type AND a CD for number). Changing arrangement can be a CD, so three in fess is a CD from two and one. And don't forget X.1. and X.2. Say you found 'Azure, a chevron between three compass stars, a chief triangular Or.' The proposal is not in conflict with it because of X.1. The chevron is the primary charge and has been removed. Say you found 'Azure, three annulets and a chief triangular Or'. Two types of charge on the field in both pieces of armory. Substantial change of type of every primary. No conflict under X.2. * Sun - Whole - Uncharged - 3 or more. Look at everything on azure and on all other fields watch for a chief triangular, since chiefs triangular are significantly different from all other charges, even other types of chiefs. Not on azure and no chief triangular = 2 CDs and clear. * Sun - Whole - Uncharged - 2. BEWARE! In this category are designs of three primary charges in which two are suns and the third something else. If arranged two and one, you can get a CD for changing the type of the something else if it's in base. But if arranged in any other way, you can't. And sometimes you can't get an arrangement CD if the arrangement is forced by other stuff in the design (like field tincture matching the charge tincture). So look at all fields but on anything but azure, keep an eye out for that useful chief triangular. Not on azure and no chief triangular = 2 CDs and clear. * Mullet - Uncharged - 1 - Or - Group primary. Because 'Azure, two lions and a mullet of six points, a chief triangular Or' or somesuch might exist. Look at azure fields, watch for that chief triangular. * Mullet - Uncharged - 2 - Or. BEWARE! In this category are designs of three primary charges in which two are mullets and the third something else. If arranged two and one, you can get a CD for changing the type of the something else if it's in base. But if arranged in any other way, you can't. And sometimes you can't get an arrangement CD if the arrangement is forced by other stuff in the design (like field tincture matching the charge tincture). So look at all fields but on anything but azure, keep an eye out for that useful chief triangular. Not on azure and no chief triangular = 2 CDs and clear. * Mullet - Uncharged - 3 - Or. Everything on azure, on other fields watch for a chief triangular. * Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Multicolor. Look at azure fields, just in case someone registered 'in pall a mullet argent between three mullets Or' or some other silliness that negates a tincture CD. Again, watch for that chief triangular. * Mullet - Charged - Or. Look at azure fields, watch for the chief triangular. * Chief - Uncharged - Complex line - Or. Look at azure fields. Why? Both pieces of armory must qualify to apply X.2. Some git might've registered 'Azure, two lions and a sword, a chief triangular Or' which would only be one CD away from your proposal under X.4.e. The good news is that you can eliminate needing to look under 1-CD away categories like non-Or mullets and suns and numbers other than three, also compass roses and estoiles, by looking at complex line chiefs. Just look carefully and don't rely on searching for text, read the entries. It gets faster with practice. (In the meantime it can be a very good cure for insomnia!) Remember X.1.! "Azure, a fess..." Stop. It's clear. "Azure, on a chevron..." Clear. "Azure, a fish between..." That'll be clear, too, since 'between' means the other charges are not in the primary group. 'in fess between' or 'in pall between' mean all in the same group, so word order matters. But watch for stuff like, "Azure, two eagles and..." Keep going, the next words might be "a sun Or". My results: Celje, Counts of - December of 2000 (via the West): Azure, three mullets of six points Or. (Important non-SCA arms) Fionn B?n - January of 1998 (via Atlantia): Azure, three mullets of six points a bordure Or. Phooey. You get to figure out why these cause trouble to your client. I expect you figured it out just reading the blazons. > She would also like to submit as a badge: > > Azure, a compass star Or. > > But sadly, it's taken: > > Paul of Sunriver > > The following device associated with this name was registered in August of > 1982 (via the West): > Azure, a compass star Or. > > Alternately, we'd talked about a fieldless compass star Or, but as far as I > can see that's still only 1 CD from the above.? Maybe doable with a > 'permission to conflict' letter if we can track the gentle down? Unfortunately, Paul of Sunriver appears to have passed and left no heraldic will. > I've also suggested (just tonight): > > (Fieldless), a compass star per pale azure and Or. > > I think that should get past the nearest similarity I found: > > Jaida bint Salim > > The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of > 2002 (via the Middle): > (Fieldless) A mullet per pale azure and vert > > (1 CD for fieldless, 1 CD for 50% or more tincture difference) And one CD for change of type of mullet. But there is a conflict, unfortunately: Griffin de Stokeport - June of 2005 (via Ealdormere): (Fieldless) A mullet of seven points per pale azure and Or. Good move on suggesting different divisions. I often suggest per saltire when working with mullets of eight points and compass stars. It's an under-used division on fieldless badges. I checked and believe (double-check my work, please) that a compass star per saltire Or and azure AND a compass star per saltire azure and Or are both clear if fieldless. And I very much recommend fieldless. No need to color in a background on anything she puts it on unless she really wants to, and then she picks whatever works for her. My badge is 'a mascle argent'. I only color in a background on white or very pale things, then if I don't default to sable I pick a color that compliments what I'm marking. I have a ewer with green leaves on it, so I painted a vert lozenge for a background and put the mascle on the lozenge. You may also fimbriate, even if not in the blazon. On my drum head I simply fimbriated the mascle sable. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 04:41:34 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 04:41:34 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] crosses In-Reply-To: <4C05D538.9060008@telus.net> References: <4C05D538.9060008@telus.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Judy Harcus wrote: > The information you need is in the May 2009 Cover Letter > http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/05/09-05cl.html (I suggest you bookmark > this). > This letter includes an article by Wreath dividing crosses into different > families and granting a substantial difference between the families. > Although it doesn't include all possible crosses, it does include most.? A > cross formy and cross of Santiago are in different families so would not > conflict. Note the cover letter covers substantial difference and some crosses are not mentioned. For unlisted types, and only significant difference, dive into compiled Laurel precedents (you know the magic URL: http://heraldry.sca.org - links down the left column) and look up Cross categories. If your specific type(s) is/are not mentioned, you need to extrapolate from what's there, and never hesitate to ask the list. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 06:40:44 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 06:40:44 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] KWHSS site map Message-ID: With the apparent demise of SCAHRLDS, I am beseeching that this get cross-posted to as many kingdom groups as you all can manage, which is why I'm cluttering up submissions_heralds with it. I apologize for doing so. There's a map up of the site for KWHSS. I put it on my website at http://www.rdrop.com/users/tierna/KWHSS/KWHSSmap.jpg Green buildings are ones we're using for the event. Washburne is event central: gate, merchants, scribal display and work areas, heraldic display area, consult, and all non-classroom meetings including the Wreath/Pelican Roadshow and Palimpsest Rules Meeting. Walter Annex is where all scribal classes will be held. Price Hall is where all heraldry classes will be held. McCormick and Burlingham Halls are where the sleeping rooms are. Parking lot K (in orange plus a couple I didn't mark) is where we'll be directing most attendees to park. Parking lot F (in orange) is handicapped parking, with appropriate car permit. Availability of other lots depends on what else is happening on campus over the weekend, but we should be able to use most of them. The orange line running to the red 'LOADING' is an access road we'll be using for teachers and merchants and displayers to drive up to unload right in front of the appropriate building before moving off to the parking lots. Driving directions bring you up College Way. Note our entrance is one north from the college main entrance. There will be folks in garb and SCA signs to help you find your way. DO NOT PARK ON THE STREET FOR MORE THAN 4 HOURS. The city tows. Come in to gate and get your on-campus parking permit and directions to a good parking lot to use. The city bus drops you off just a block south of the lower edge of the map at the corner of Pacific Ave & College Way. The distance between parking lot K and Price Hall is just under 2 short city blocks (they're 20 to the mile around here). All paths on the map are paved and fairly flat, wheelchair friendly. Yes, that's a public aquatic center behind Burlingham Hall. Public swim is 7:30-8:45pm Friday, 2-4pm Saturday and Sunday. Fees are $3.75 for 17 and under or 65 and older, $5.90 for the rest of us. Forest Grove won't be hot over the weekend (expect nothing higher than low to mid 70s, possibly as cool as 55, probably some rain) but it is an indoor pool. Contact me with any questions. - Teceangl, KWHSS event steward tierna at agora.rdrop.com (503)256-1891 (home phone, not cell - permission is given to share or print my telephone number for all KWHSS purposes) -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 09:15:11 2010 From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 09:15:11 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ordinary confusion In-Reply-To: References: <4C0665E7.2000304@telus.net> Message-ID: Celje, Counts of - December of 2000 (via the West): Azure, three mullets of six points Or. (Important non-SCA arms) Fionn B?n - January of 1998 (via Atlantia): Azure, three mullets of six points a bordure Or. In both cases, the addition of the chief triangular - or its substitution for the bordure - only gives 1 CD. Yes? Just off the top of my head, might the following work against these (I'm at work so can't do a full check but will again later at home): Per pale azure and Or, three compass stars and a chief triangular counterchanged. My client *might* go for that; she might also feel it's too fussy, as she really like the clean simplicity of what she'd proposed. I'm fairly certain azure and Or will be the colours she wants, as they are also her lord's colours. More questions - and what I've sorted out - as I find more. Thanks for your help thus far, ladies. Wulfstan On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:34 AM, Teceangl wrote: > > I've run into the unknown records before but usually it works the next > time > > I check. Try again and see if you still have the problem. It's not > showing > > up for me. > > Seeing those messages is frequently a good sign. It means the > database is being updated. Give it a couple of hours and go back in > for another try. Unfortunately, neither of the alternate O&A sites > seems recommendable. heraldsnet.org is buggy and wgz.org is seriously > out of date. Stick with oanda.sca.org > > > Compass stars, compass roses, mullets and suns all have the potential of > > conflicting with each other. > > A compass star doesn't conflict with a mullet of the default 5 points but > > will with all others. > > Compass stars also conflict with suns, so you need to check there as > well. > > Under the right circumstances, an elephant 'conflicts with' a mullet. > :) Degrees of difference are the better way to think. A compass star > can easily conflict with a mullet of five points if the only CD > between the armories is type of the mullet, because they get > significant difference (CD-level) but not substantial (complete type > difference to be clear by X.2.). So Alicia was about right in that > you must look under suns and mullets and compass roses, as those are > the potential conflicting charges. You can't automatically skip > anything in those categories but you can keep guaranteed differences > in mind while checking. > > Another category to remember: estoiles. Significant but not > substantial difference. The same goes for demi-suns and any mullet or > sun, you get one CD under X.4.e. > > > If the compass star is on a field, you need to check against compass > roses > > on the same field (you get one CD between a compass star and a compass > rose > > but need a second; fieldless or change of field will give you the second > > one). > > Degree of difference here is significant, for the addition of the > annulet. Since that's a definite CD and changing the field is a > definite CD, as Alicia says you need only check matching fields when > looking at compass roses. > > > Relevant precedents: > > Add one of my favorites: > > There is another CD for changing the type of mullet from a mullet of > eight points to a mullet of five points. The rules for change of type > of mullets follow the rules for change of number of charges. Mullets > of n points will get a CD from mullets of m points if RfS X.4.f gives > a CD for changing the number of charges from n to m. [Kouac Myklos, > 02/2002, A-Ansteorra] > > Always count the minor points, unless comparing a compass star to a > mullet of four points. > > [a mullet of four points elongated to base vs. a compass star] There > is no difference between a mullet of four points and a compass star > per the LoAR of January 2001: "As neither a compass star nor a mullet > of four points are period charges, and they differ only by the > addition of the lesser points, there is not a CD between a mullet of > four points and a compass star." There is also no difference for the > slight artistic variant in elongating the bottom point of a mullet. > [Catherine Diana de Chamb?ry, 05/2003, R-Atenveldt] > > And one affirming difference from standard estoiles: > > [Counter-ermine, three estoiles Or] This does not conflict with the > Counts of Celje (important non-SCA arms), Azure, three mullets of six > points Or. There is one CD for changing the field. The SCA has > consistently held, since the Cover Letter for the June 1991 LoAR, that > mullets should be given a CD from estoiles (in the estoile's standard > depiction, with six wavy rays). [Giovanni Basilio de Castronovo, > 10/2002, A-Lochac] > > > Azure, three compass stars and a chief triangular Or. > > Easy check. Remember what IS a difference and you can streamline > things considerably. Changing the field from anything that isn't > plain azure is a CD. Changing from any other number than three in the > group is a CD. Changing the tincture or division of the primary charge > group is a CD. Having added a secondary charge group is a CD. Changing > the type of the secondary charge is a CD. Changing the tincture or > division of the secondary charge is a CD. Changing the number of > secondary charges is a CD (yes, you get a CD for number between one > chief and any other number of anything else - semy of annulets versus > a chief triangular is a CD for type AND a CD for number). Changing > arrangement can be a CD, so three in fess is a CD from two and one. > And don't forget X.1. and X.2. > Say you found 'Azure, a chevron between three compass stars, a chief > triangular Or.' The proposal is not in conflict with it because of > X.1. The chevron is the primary charge and has been removed. > Say you found 'Azure, three annulets and a chief triangular Or'. Two > types of charge on the field in both pieces of armory. Substantial > change of type of every primary. No conflict under X.2. > > * Sun - Whole - Uncharged - 3 or more. Look at everything on azure > and on all other fields watch for a chief triangular, since chiefs > triangular are significantly different from all other charges, even > other types of chiefs. Not on azure and no chief triangular = 2 CDs > and clear. > * Sun - Whole - Uncharged - 2. BEWARE! In this category are designs > of three primary charges in which two are suns and the third something > else. If arranged two and one, you can get a CD for changing the type > of the something else if it's in base. But if arranged in any other > way, you can't. And sometimes you can't get an arrangement CD if the > arrangement is forced by other stuff in the design (like field > tincture matching the charge tincture). So look at all fields but on > anything but azure, keep an eye out for that useful chief triangular. > Not on azure and no chief triangular = 2 CDs and clear. > * Mullet - Uncharged - 1 - Or - Group primary. Because 'Azure, two > lions and a mullet of six points, a chief triangular Or' or somesuch > might exist. Look at azure fields, watch for that chief triangular. > * Mullet - Uncharged - 2 - Or. BEWARE! In this category are designs > of three primary charges in which two are mullets and the third > something else. If arranged two and one, you can get a CD for changing > the type of the something else if it's in base. But if arranged in any > other way, you can't. And sometimes you can't get an arrangement CD if > the arrangement is forced by other stuff in the design (like field > tincture matching the charge tincture). So look at all fields but on > anything but azure, keep an eye out for that useful chief triangular. > Not on azure and no chief triangular = 2 CDs and clear. > * Mullet - Uncharged - 3 - Or. Everything on azure, on other fields > watch for a chief triangular. > * Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Multicolor. Look at azure fields, > just in case someone registered 'in pall a mullet argent between three > mullets Or' or some other silliness that negates a tincture CD. Again, > watch for that chief triangular. > * Mullet - Charged - Or. Look at azure fields, watch for the chief > triangular. > * Chief - Uncharged - Complex line - Or. Look at azure fields. Why? > Both pieces of armory must qualify to apply X.2. Some git might've > registered 'Azure, two lions and a sword, a chief triangular Or' which > would only be one CD away from your proposal under X.4.e. The good > news is that you can eliminate needing to look under 1-CD away > categories like non-Or mullets and suns and numbers other than three, > also compass roses and estoiles, by looking at complex line chiefs. > Just look carefully and don't rely on searching for text, read the > entries. > > It gets faster with practice. (In the meantime it can be a very good > cure for insomnia!) Remember X.1.! "Azure, a fess..." Stop. It's > clear. "Azure, on a chevron..." Clear. "Azure, a fish between..." > That'll be clear, too, since 'between' means the other charges are not > in the primary group. 'in fess between' or 'in pall between' mean all > in the same group, so word order matters. > But watch for stuff like, "Azure, two eagles and..." Keep going, the > next words might be "a sun Or". > > My results: > Celje, Counts of - December of 2000 (via the West): Azure, three > mullets of six points Or. (Important non-SCA arms) > > Fionn B?n - January of 1998 (via Atlantia): Azure, three mullets of > six points a bordure Or. > > Phooey. You get to figure out why these cause trouble to your client. > I expect you figured it out just reading the blazons. > > > She would also like to submit as a badge: > > > > Azure, a compass star Or. > > > > But sadly, it's taken: > > > > Paul of Sunriver > > > > The following device associated with this name was registered in August > of > > 1982 (via the West): > > Azure, a compass star Or. > > > > Alternately, we'd talked about a fieldless compass star Or, but as far as > I > > can see that's still only 1 CD from the above. Maybe doable with a > > 'permission to conflict' letter if we can track the gentle down? > > Unfortunately, Paul of Sunriver appears to have passed and left no > heraldic will. > > > I've also suggested (just tonight): > > > > (Fieldless), a compass star per pale azure and Or. > > > > I think that should get past the nearest similarity I found: > > > > Jaida bint Salim > > > > The following badge associated with this name was registered in January > of > > 2002 (via the Middle): > > (Fieldless) A mullet per pale azure and vert > > > > (1 CD for fieldless, 1 CD for 50% or more tincture difference) > > And one CD for change of type of mullet. > But there is a conflict, unfortunately: > Griffin de Stokeport - June of 2005 (via Ealdormere): (Fieldless) A > mullet of seven points per pale azure and Or. > > Good move on suggesting different divisions. I often suggest per > saltire when working with mullets of eight points and compass stars. > It's an under-used division on fieldless badges. I checked and > believe (double-check my work, please) that a compass star per saltire > Or and azure AND a compass star per saltire azure and Or are both > clear if fieldless. > > And I very much recommend fieldless. No need to color in a background > on anything she puts it on unless she really wants to, and then she > picks whatever works for her. My badge is 'a mascle argent'. I only > color in a background on white or very pale things, then if I don't > default to sable I pick a color that compliments what I'm marking. I > have a ewer with green leaves on it, so I painted a vert lozenge for a > background and put the mascle on the lozenge. You may also fimbriate, > even if not in the blazon. On my drum head I simply fimbriated the > mascle sable. > > - Teceangl > -- > KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org > -- THL Wulfstan Hrafnsson Herald of Lionsdale Skald of Tir Righ Principal Vox Herald to Their Highnesses Ieuan and Gwyneth Student to Sionann in Ui Fhlaithbheartaig Member of Hollyhouse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tierna.britt at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 09:24:10 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 09:24:10 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ordinary confusion In-Reply-To: References: <4C0665E7.2000304@telus.net> Message-ID: > Celje, Counts of - December of 2000 (via the West): Azure, three > mullets of six points Or. (Important non-SCA arms) > > Fionn B?n - January of 1998 (via Atlantia): Azure, three mullets of > six points a bordure Or. > > In both cases, the addition of the chief triangular - or its substitution > for the bordure - only gives 1 CD.? Yes? Yup. X.4.b. against the Counts of Celje and X.4.e. against Fionn. > Just off the top of my head, might the following work against these (I'm at > work so can't do a full check but will again later at home): > > Per pale azure and Or, three compass stars and a chief triangular > counterchanged. What do you think? X.4.a and X.4.d? Would require a whole new conflict check, too. :) > My client *might* go for that; she might also feel it's too fussy, as she > really like the clean simplicity of what she'd proposed.? I'm fairly > certain?azure and Or will be the colours she wants, as they are also her > lord's colours. Just the colors, not the charges? Identity of arms means closeness of blood. Too many people in the SCA seem to have married their siblings and first cousins... Another option might be make the field Or and charges azure. I haven't checked that, either. The chief triangular is a good thing for clearing conflict so if she really likes it, encourage her to keep it. Best period style with a chief triangular is uncharged, by the way. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From diamantedamagenta at me.com Fri Jun 4 08:55:59 2010 From: diamantedamagenta at me.com (MAGENTA) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <568e2874-2e42-cc9d-d5b2-e1028af74449@me.com> With utmost respect and with regard to all honour and reverence, my good and gentle lady Teceangl, you have slain me at my breakfast table with this, your most entertaining post! Forever in your giggling service Magenta -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BasilD at lavabit.com Fri Jun 4 11:55:48 2010 From: BasilD at lavabit.com (Basil) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:55:48 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C094C34.2040708@lavabit.com> Teceangl wrote: > It's late and I've been sloughing through heraldry and words too long. > My brain wandered off and got into trouble when I wasn't paying > attention. > > The motif of 'per bend, an X and a Y' is seen in late period German > armory (reference Johann Siebmachers Wappenbuch von 1605, linked from > http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/german.shtml ). 'Per fess, an X and > a Y' is also seen in German heraldry, and occasionally English. (Note > that charges around an ordinary in period appear to have always been > of the same type.) > > So.... Does that mean you could have: > a star and a chicken and blazon it 'a mullet and a pullet' > a vertical stripe and a wooden hammer and blazon it 'a pallet and a mallet' > a cup and an ornate castle and blazon it 'a chalice and a palace' > a stone and a means of securing a door and blazon it 'a rock and a lock' > a transport vehicle and a fire-breathing monster and blazon it 'a > wagon and a dragon' > a domestic canine and a toothed wheel and blazon it 'a dog and a cog' > a pair of hosen and a small wild canid and blazon it 'socks and a fox' > a piece of footgear and a musical instrument and blazon it 'a boot and a lute' > a gaming cube and a sight organ and blazon it 'a die and an eye' > a solar entity and a wine cask and blazon it 'a sun and a tun' Then there's: a large member of the deer family and a fowl and blazon it "a moose and a goose" a caprine animal and a watercraft and blazon it "a goat and a boat" a medium-sized stout-bodied Old World bird and a container of powder and shot and blazon it "a partridge and a cartridge" a blood-sucking invertebrate and a fruit and blazon it "a leech and a peach" a mustelid and a kitchen fixture and blazon it "a mink and a sink" an insect and a floor covering and blazon it "a bug and a rug" an ornamental shrub of the olive family and a three-footed support and blazon it "a privet and a trivet" If you added a smallish carnivorous mammal you could blazon it "a privet, a trivet, and a civet." a bivalve and pig meat and blazon it "a clam and a ham". If you added a young sheep you could blazon it "a clam, a ham, and a lamb" a large African antelope and a ruined castle and blazon it "a gnu and an old" a ship without sails or masts and a Navajo house and blazon it "a hulk and a hogan" > For that matter, if a default crane in its vigilance maintained a > rock, and a default roc maintains an elephant, and a default elephant > maintains a castle on its back, could you register 'a crane > maintaining a roc maintaining an elephant maintaining a castle'? > Would you want to? (Blame this one on Daniel de Lincoln; I 'borrowed' > it from him.) And I maintain you are delightfully irreverent! :-) -- ~~Basil Dragonstrike The Nexus Lords (http://mausershooters.org/rowan/novel.html) My landlady's work. Please donate so we can keep our home! From mhood at shaw.ca Fri Jun 4 16:16:01 2010 From: mhood at shaw.ca (Mark Hood) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:16:01 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons In-Reply-To: <4C094C34.2040708@lavabit.com> References: <4C094C34.2040708@lavabit.com> Message-ID: Or ... A ceramic pitcher, charged with a winged serpent, and a goblet, charged with castle. A flagon with a dragon and a?chalice?with a palace. uilliam ----- Original Message ----- From: Basil Date: Friday, June 4, 2010 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons To: An Tir Heralds Cc: summits-heralds at antir.sca.org, avacal_heralds at yahoogroups.com, Tir Righ Heralds > Teceangl wrote: > > It's late and I've been sloughing through heraldry and words > too long. > >?? My brain wandered off and got into trouble when I > wasn't paying > > attention. > > > > The motif of 'per bend, an X and a Y' is seen in late period German > > armory (reference Johann Siebmachers Wappenbuch von 1605, > linked from > > http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/german.shtml ).? 'Per > fess, an X and > > a Y' is also seen in German heraldry, and occasionally > English.? (Note > > that charges around an ordinary in period appear to have > always been > > of the same type.) > > > > So....? Does that mean you could have: > > a star and a chicken and blazon it 'a mullet and a pullet' > > a vertical stripe and a wooden hammer and blazon it 'a pallet > and a mallet' > > a cup and an ornate castle and blazon it 'a chalice and a palace' > > a stone and a means of securing a door and blazon it 'a rock > and a lock' > > a transport vehicle and a fire-breathing monster and blazon it 'a > > wagon and a dragon' > > a domestic canine and a toothed wheel and blazon it 'a dog and > a cog' > > a pair of hosen and a small wild canid and blazon it 'socks > and a fox' > > a piece of footgear and a musical instrument and blazon it 'a > boot and a lute' > > a gaming cube and a sight organ and blazon it 'a die and an eye' > > a solar entity and a wine cask and blazon it 'a sun and a tun' > > Then there's: > a large member of the deer family and a fowl and blazon it "a > moose > and a goose" > > a caprine animal and a watercraft and blazon it "a goat and a boat" > > a medium-sized stout-bodied Old World bird and a container of > powder > and shot and blazon it "a partridge and a cartridge" > > a blood-sucking invertebrate and a fruit and blazon it "a leech > and a > peach" > > a mustelid and a kitchen fixture and blazon it "a mink and a sink" > > an insect and a floor covering and blazon it "a bug and a rug" > > an ornamental shrub of the olive family and a three-footed > support and > blazon it "a privet and a trivet" If you added a smallish > carnivorous > mammal you could blazon it "a privet, a trivet, and a civet." > > a bivalve and pig meat and blazon it "a clam and a ham". If you > added > a young sheep you could blazon it "a clam, a ham, and a lamb" > > a large African antelope and a ruined castle and blazon it "a > gnu and > an old" > > a ship without sails or masts and a Navajo house and blazon it > "a hulk > and a hogan" > > > > For that matter, if a default crane in its vigilance > maintained a > > rock, and a default roc maintains an elephant, and a default > elephant> maintains a castle on its back, could you register 'a crane > > maintaining a roc maintaining an elephant maintaining a castle'? > > Would you want to?? (Blame this one on Daniel de Lincoln; > I 'borrowed' > > it from him.) > > And I maintain you are delightfully irreverent! :-) > > > -- > ~~Basil Dragonstrike > > The Nexus Lords (http://mausershooters.org/rowan/novel.html) > My landlady's work. Please donate so we can keep our home! > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > ?????? Help: collegeofheralds- > request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) > or > http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dangerdean at shaw.ca Fri Jun 4 16:25:12 2010 From: dangerdean at shaw.ca (Dean MacPherson) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:25:12 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons In-Reply-To: References: <4C094C34.2040708@lavabit.com> Message-ID: Not sure if this has come up, but a red ghost on a red field. Gules Ghouls Gules! ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Hood Date: Friday, June 4, 2010 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons To: Basil Cc: summits-heralds at antir.sca.org, avacal_heralds at yahoogroups.com, An Tir Heralds , Tir Righ Heralds > > Or ... > > A ceramic pitcher, charged with a winged serpent, and a goblet, > charged with castle. > > A flagon with a dragon and a chalice with a palace. > > > uilliam > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Basil > Date: Friday, June 4, 2010 4:04 pm > Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons > To: An Tir Heralds > Cc: summits-heralds at antir.sca.org, > avacal_heralds at yahoogroups.com, Tir Righ Heralds > > > Teceangl wrote: > > > It's late and I've been sloughing through heraldry and words > > too long. > > > My brain wandered off and got into trouble when I > > wasn't paying > > > attention. > > > > > > The motif of 'per bend, an X and a Y' is seen in late period > German> > armory (reference Johann Siebmachers Wappenbuch von > 1605, > > linked from > > > http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/german.shtml ). 'Per > > fess, an X and > > > a Y' is also seen in German heraldry, and occasionally > > English. (Note > > > that charges around an ordinary in period appear to have > > always been > > > of the same type.) > > > > > > So.... Does that mean you could have: > > > a star and a chicken and blazon it 'a mullet and a pullet' > > > a vertical stripe and a wooden hammer and blazon it 'a > pallet > > and a mallet' > > > a cup and an ornate castle and blazon it 'a chalice and a palace' > > > a stone and a means of securing a door and blazon it 'a rock > > and a lock' > > > a transport vehicle and a fire-breathing monster and blazon > it 'a > > > wagon and a dragon' > > > a domestic canine and a toothed wheel and blazon it 'a dog > and > > a cog' > > > a pair of hosen and a small wild canid and blazon it 'socks > > and a fox' > > > a piece of footgear and a musical instrument and blazon it > 'a > > boot and a lute' > > > a gaming cube and a sight organ and blazon it 'a die and an eye' > > > a solar entity and a wine cask and blazon it 'a sun and a tun' > > > > Then there's: > > a large member of the deer family and a fowl and blazon it "a > > moose > > and a goose" > > > > a caprine animal and a watercraft and blazon it "a goat and a boat" > > > > a medium-sized stout-bodied Old World bird and a container of > > powder > > and shot and blazon it "a partridge and a cartridge" > > > > a blood-sucking invertebrate and a fruit and blazon it "a > leech > > and a > > peach" > > > > a mustelid and a kitchen fixture and blazon it "a mink and a sink" > > > > an insect and a floor covering and blazon it "a bug and a rug" > > > > an ornamental shrub of the olive family and a three-footed > > support and > > blazon it "a privet and a trivet" If you added a smallish > > carnivorous > > mammal you could blazon it "a privet, a trivet, and a civet." > > > > a bivalve and pig meat and blazon it "a clam and a ham". If > you > > added > > a young sheep you could blazon it "a clam, a ham, and a lamb" > > > > a large African antelope and a ruined castle and blazon it "a > > gnu and > > an old" > > > > a ship without sails or masts and a Navajo house and blazon it > > "a hulk > > and a hogan" > > > > > > > For that matter, if a default crane in its vigilance > > maintained a > > > rock, and a default roc maintains an elephant, and a default > > elephant> maintains a castle on its back, could you register > 'a crane > > > maintaining a roc maintaining an elephant maintaining a castle'? > > > Would you want to? (Blame this one on Daniel de Lincoln; > > I 'borrowed' > > > it from him.) > > > > And I maintain you are delightfully irreverent! :-) > > > > > > -- > > ~~Basil Dragonstrike > > > > The Nexus Lords (http://mausershooters.org/rowan/novel.html) > > My landlady's work. Please donate so we can keep our home! > > > > > > =============================================== > > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > > Help: collegeofheralds- > > request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) > > or > > > http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tierna.britt at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 22:33:03 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 22:33:03 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons In-Reply-To: References: <4C094C34.2040708@lavabit.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Dean MacPherson wrote: > Not sure if this has come up, but a red ghost on a red field. Gules Ghouls > Gules! April 1 LoI about 15 years ago. Commenters agreed that the ghouls were as discernable in the emblazon as they were in the dark, so it was not an RfS VII.7. violation. :) - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From cmhart at shaw.ca Sat Jun 5 11:04:58 2010 From: cmhart at shaw.ca (Colin) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 11:04:58 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <188FC6E3B27E4B28A2D32BE791070499@Lenovo510THINK> I remember an April 1 Laurel Letter, things like Duncan Donat and the Arms for Halfdan Iceday. The latter was Or 2 Bezants in chief above an increscent, I think the charges were somehow described as black but in a proper healdise! -----Original Message----- From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org [mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Mark Hood Sent: June-04-10 4:16 PM To: Basil Cc: summits-heralds at antir.sca.org; avacal_heralds at yahoogroups.com; An Tir Heralds; Tir Righ Heralds Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons Or ... A ceramic pitcher, charged with a winged serpent, and a goblet, charged with castle. A flagon with a dragon and a chalice with a palace. uilliam ----- Original Message ----- From: Basil Date: Friday, June 4, 2010 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons To: An Tir Heralds Cc: summits-heralds at antir.sca.org, avacal_heralds at yahoogroups.com, Tir Righ Heralds > Teceangl wrote: > > It's late and I've been sloughing through heraldry and words > too long. > > My brain wandered off and got into trouble when I > wasn't paying > > attention. > > > > The motif of 'per bend, an X and a Y' is seen in late period German > > armory (reference Johann Siebmachers Wappenbuch von 1605, > linked from > > http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/german.shtml ). 'Per > fess, an X and > > a Y' is also seen in German heraldry, and occasionally > English. (Note > > that charges around an ordinary in period appear to have > always been > > of the same type.) > > > > So.... Does that mean you could have: > > a star and a chicken and blazon it 'a mullet and a pullet' > > a vertical stripe and a wooden hammer and blazon it 'a pallet > and a mallet' > > a cup and an ornate castle and blazon it 'a chalice and a palace' > > a stone and a means of securing a door and blazon it 'a rock > and a lock' > > a transport vehicle and a fire-breathing monster and blazon it 'a > > wagon and a dragon' > > a domestic canine and a toothed wheel and blazon it 'a dog and > a cog' > > a pair of hosen and a small wild canid and blazon it 'socks > and a fox' > > a piece of footgear and a musical instrument and blazon it 'a > boot and a lute' > > a gaming cube and a sight organ and blazon it 'a die and an eye' > > a solar entity and a wine cask and blazon it 'a sun and a tun' > > Then there's: > a large member of the deer family and a fowl and blazon it "a > moose > and a goose" > > a caprine animal and a watercraft and blazon it "a goat and a boat" > > a medium-sized stout-bodied Old World bird and a container of > powder > and shot and blazon it "a partridge and a cartridge" > > a blood-sucking invertebrate and a fruit and blazon it "a leech > and a > peach" > > a mustelid and a kitchen fixture and blazon it "a mink and a sink" > > an insect and a floor covering and blazon it "a bug and a rug" > > an ornamental shrub of the olive family and a three-footed > support and > blazon it "a privet and a trivet" If you added a smallish > carnivorous > mammal you could blazon it "a privet, a trivet, and a civet." > > a bivalve and pig meat and blazon it "a clam and a ham". If you > added > a young sheep you could blazon it "a clam, a ham, and a lamb" > > a large African antelope and a ruined castle and blazon it "a > gnu and > an old" > > a ship without sails or masts and a Navajo house and blazon it > "a hulk > and a hogan" > > > > For that matter, if a default crane in its vigilance > maintained a > > rock, and a default roc maintains an elephant, and a default > elephant> maintains a castle on its back, could you register 'a crane > > maintaining a roc maintaining an elephant maintaining a castle'? > > Would you want to? (Blame this one on Daniel de Lincoln; > I 'borrowed' > > it from him.) > > And I maintain you are delightfully irreverent! :-) > > > -- > ~~Basil Dragonstrike > > The Nexus Lords (http://mausershooters.org/rowan/novel.html) > My landlady's work. Please donate so we can keep our home! > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds- > request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) > or > http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cameronfamily3 at juno.com Sat Jun 5 06:36:58 2010 From: cameronfamily3 at juno.com (ellen j cameron) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 06:36:58 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] Irreverent blazons Message-ID: <20100605.063658.2232.1.cameronfamily3@juno.com> > > Not sure if this has come up, but a red ghost on a red field. > Gules Ghouls > > Gules! I have occssionally fantasized about creating a household and registering its badge as a red -- something. A roundel, perhaps. But just red. Period. Therefore, the household name would be The Family Gules. (I once had a high-school lit. book which insisted that "gules" was pronounced with a *soft* "g".) Havoise ____________________________________________________________ $350,000 Life Insurance Protect Your Family Today.?Coverage as low as $13.04/month! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c0a533aee7f445c19m03duc From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 10:42:40 2010 From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:42:40 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ordinary still acting strangely for me Message-ID: Hi all, My searches on the Ordinary are still returning lots of "unknown entry" results for mullets, and very few actual entries, though the various categories say they have anything from 70 to 150 records. My client and I are considering changing the arrangement of the compass stars (to get around the Celje conflict and probably several others), probably to one of the following: Azure, a chief triangular and in fess three compass stars Or. [or] Azure, a chief triangular and in bend three compass stars Or. Thoughts? Solutions on the Ordinary situation? It's been doing that every time I've checked it - and some other charges - over the last few days. Wulfstan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tierna.britt at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 13:43:46 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:43:46 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Ordinary still acting strangely for me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > My searches on the Ordinary are still returning lots of "unknown entry" > results for mullets, and very few actual entries, though the various > categories say they have anything from 70 to 150 records. very weird. I know you're using http://oanda.sca.org/ordinary/index.html but no one else is having that problem. What browser are you using? (Morsulus will be at KWHSS, will you? If so, can you bring your computer so we can see the problem in person?) > My client and I > are considering changing the arrangement of the compass stars (to get around > the Celje conflict and probably several others), probably to one of the > following: > > Azure, a chief triangular and in fess three compass stars Or. > > [or] > > Azure, a chief triangular and in bend three compass stars Or. Well, in bend sacrifices some of the nice, balanced style. I suggest looking for in fess first (I'll have time to conflict check this later, MAKE time - conflict checking is how I'm retaining my sanity this week). Will the client primarily be displaying on a heater, lozenge, or some other shape? Arrangement can be tweaked to assure best look on preferred shape, which can help clear conflict. As Magenta will use a lozenge exclusively, she's designing ON a lozenge and just using the escutcheon shape for submission. It might not look great on the submission form (I tell the College it was designed for a different shape if they comment on arrangement, if I know) but should look lovely on her lozenge when it's done. Your client should do the same. Three in fess would look great on a lozenge or square. > Thoughts?? Solutions on the Ordinary situation?? It's been doing that every > time I've checked it - and some other charges - over the last few days. Get me the tech specs and I'll chat up Morsulus about it. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Mon Jun 14 12:13:35 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:13:35 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Known World Heraldic and Scribal Symposium 2010 Message-ID: <762964C096534CC180B5BEE7FCEEF684@carncats.ca> Good morning Tir Righ! What a weekend it was! Although I was unable to attend our own Coronet Tourney, I've just returned from the KWHSS down in Forest Grove, Oregon in the Shire of Dragon's Mist. It was an amazing event and I have come away with more information than I can even decipher right now (brain is on Heraldic and Scribal overload!). Many of them wonderful ideas for our next Symposium. I was honored with receiving a Dragon's Scale for service to the Shire by their populace and could never thank them enough for treating me like long lost family. The site tokens made by our own Alicia Red Flame were a coveted item and I am so thankful I was able to be there to have one of my own. The accolades to her talent will be heard throughout the Know World for years to come (she was blushing brighter than the title she holds). My thanks to Alicia for enabling me to travel with her so that Uilliam could be where he needed to be and I could be where I needed to be this weekend. I will be completing a full report of the happenings and meetings in the coming days as there is much work to be done within our College, but wanted to let everyone know of the overwhelming success that the Symposium was. And a huge HUZZAH to Alicia Red Flame on her amazing site tokens! Overwhelmingly and Heraldically contented. Caitrina Silver Yale "Quarterly gules and sable, a winged fox sejant argent." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Caitrina at shaw.ca Mon Jun 14 14:38:44 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:38:44 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] To ARMS, to ARMS! Message-ID: <7EA10D492C5943129E7AE779DCBFD612@carncats.ca> To all Heralds of Tir Righ a call to ARMS! Heraldic Arms that is! Hello Tir Righ! It has been brought to my attention that in less than two weeks there will be a War Point at AT War for Heraldry! Show your pride! Every encampment with a heraldic display (personal or Principality) will earn points for their respective Principality. The Principality with the most heraldry on display will take the heraldry war point. Bring out your banners, bring out your flags, bring out your garb, your boxes and bags! Live by the code, there can never be too much Heraldry! Just sayin, Caitrina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anthony.hawke at shaw.ca Tue Jun 15 20:42:28 2010 From: anthony.hawke at shaw.ca (HL Anthony Hawke) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 20:42:28 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Call for Applications: Demi-Lion Herald Message-ID: <4C184824.4080803@shaw.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrs_mhood at shaw.ca Sun Jun 20 16:40:09 2010 From: mrs_mhood at shaw.ca (Roxanne Hood) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:40:09 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) two straight trumpets in saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent Message-ID: <5FBAF6268E794E8185315B210CFB8C66@carncats.ca> Conflict Check for anyone willing. (Fieldless) two straight trumpets in saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent. Feel free to slap me on the blazon, I'm resembling a headless chicken today and probably screwed it up. : ) Anyone? In Service, Caitrina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 21:24:13 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:24:13 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) two straight trumpets in saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent In-Reply-To: <5FBAF6268E794E8185315B210CFB8C66@carncats.ca> References: <5FBAF6268E794E8185315B210CFB8C66@carncats.ca> Message-ID: > Conflict Check for anyone willing? (Fieldless) two straight trumpets in > saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent. Tinctureless, don't you mean? The trumpets in saltire are reserved for PH seals, which must be tinctureless. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Sun Jun 20 22:17:11 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (CAITRINA SABLE LOAT) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:17:11 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) two straight trumpets in saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent In-Reply-To: References: <5FBAF6268E794E8185315B210CFB8C66@carncats.ca> Message-ID: THAT explains why I found another Kingdom with several different Heralds badges that didn't look to be registered! Well one mystery solved :) ----- Original Message ----- From: Teceangl Date: Sunday, June 20, 2010 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) two straight trumpets in saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent To: Roxanne Hood Cc: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org > > Conflict Check for anyone willing? (Fieldless) two straight > trumpets in > > saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent. > > Tinctureless, don't you mean?? The trumpets in saltire are > reservedfor PH seals, which must be tinctureless. > > - Teceangl > -- > KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > ?????? Help: collegeofheralds- > request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) > or > http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 22:23:04 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:23:04 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) two straight trumpets in saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent In-Reply-To: References: <5FBAF6268E794E8185315B210CFB8C66@carncats.ca> Message-ID: > Right! ?That explains why I found a bunch of badges for another Kingdom's heralds that where not registered. ?Thanks Teceangl :). Mystery solved Yep. Gotta ruling: [Badge for the Wyvernwood Pursuivant] ... current Administrative policy forbids the registration of badges to local offices when a kingdom or corporate office already has a badge. Therefore we cannot register a badge to a local pursuivant. [Wyvernwoode, Barony of, 10/00, R-Trimaris] [Ed.: Also returned for conflict] Principality PH seals is a nebulous zone. Could be you can have one, but it wouldn't be for anyone's use but the PH's for official purposes. I favor displaying branch arms to dexter and heralds' badge to sinister, respecting one another (not impaled, make it look like two banners tacked together). Looks spiff and gets the message across. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From jdharcus at telus.net Sun Jun 20 23:03:26 2010 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 23:03:26 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) two straight trumpets in saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent In-Reply-To: References: <5FBAF6268E794E8185315B210CFB8C66@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <4C1F00AE.9020301@telus.net> Teceangl wrote: >Principality PH seals is a nebulous zone. Could be you can have one, >but it wouldn't be for anyone's use but the PH's for official >purposes. > > I was told a Principality could not register a herald's seal - only a kingdom can. Which seems dumb to me because if the principality can't register it until they become a kingdom, there's several months after you become a kingdom you don't have a seal you can use. Alicia From tierna.britt at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 23:23:29 2010 From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 23:23:29 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) two straight trumpets in saltire Or interlocked with a compass star voided argent In-Reply-To: <4C1F00AE.9020301@telus.net> References: <5FBAF6268E794E8185315B210CFB8C66@carncats.ca> <4C1F00AE.9020301@telus.net> Message-ID: > I was told a Principality could not register a herald's seal - only a > kingdom can. Found it. AH II.E.5. Well, that's that then. I should have looked there first. - Teceangl -- KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org From Caitrina at shaw.ca Mon Jun 28 15:46:57 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina Silver Yale) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:46:57 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) A raven close to sinister sable. Message-ID: <3A76E6534B484512B3018602F28D7FC0@carncats.ca> I'm either losing it or people are just starting to look for simpler designs than they used to. Can I get a double check on the following please? (Fieldless) A raven close to sinister sable. In Service, Caitrina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From draconarius at gmail.com Mon Jun 28 15:52:44 2010 From: draconarius at gmail.com (Bruce Draconarius) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:52:44 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) A raven close to sinister sable. In-Reply-To: <3A76E6534B484512B3018602F28D7FC0@carncats.ca> References: <3A76E6534B484512B3018602F28D7FC0@carncats.ca> Message-ID: Unfortunately, if it looks too good to be true, sometimes it is. Conflicts with the device of Morgan ni Lochlainn (reg. Aug 88 via the East), "Gyronny gules and argent, a raven close to sinister sable, armed and membered Or." A CD for fieldlessness, but no more. The Or artistic details, being artistic details, are worth no difference. - Bruce On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Caitrina Silver Yale wrote: > I'm either losing it or people are just starting to look for simpler > designs > than they used to. Can I get a double check on the following please? > > > > (Fieldless) A raven close to sinister sable. > > > > In Service, > > > > Caitrina > > _______________________________________________ > antir-heralds mailing list > antir-heralds at antir.sca.org > http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds > -- People react to any new situation in one of four ways: "Aha!" -- "Ho hum..." -- "Oy vey!" -- or "Yum yum..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Caitrina at shaw.ca Mon Jun 28 20:00:18 2010 From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina Silver Yale) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:00:18 -0700 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) A raven close to sinister sable. In-Reply-To: References: <3A76E6534B484512B3018602F28D7FC0@carncats.ca> Message-ID: <2143D59EDAF7408F868633DB933434A1@carncats.ca> But the good news is you've confirmed what I thought : ) Thanks very much for getting back to me so quickly! Caitrina _____ From: Bruce Draconarius [mailto:draconarius at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 3:53 PM To: Caitrina Silver Yale Cc: An Tir Heralds; collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org Subject: Re: [antir-heralds] CC - (Fieldless) A raven close to sinister sable. Unfortunately, if it looks too good to be true, sometimes it is. Conflicts with the device of Morgan ni Lochlainn (reg. Aug 88 via the East), "Gyronny gules and argent, a raven close to sinister sable, armed and membered Or." A CD for fieldlessness, but no more. The Or artistic details, being artistic details, are worth no difference. - Bruce On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Caitrina Silver Yale wrote: I'm either losing it or people are just starting to look for simpler designs than they used to. Can I get a double check on the following please? (Fieldless) A raven close to sinister sable. In Service, Caitrina _______________________________________________ antir-heralds mailing list antir-heralds at antir.sca.org http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds -- People react to any new situation in one of four ways: "Aha!" -- "Ho hum..." -- "Oy vey!" -- or "Yum yum..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: