From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com  Thu May  6 10:20:45 2010
From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:20:45 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Confusion about an online ordinary result
Message-ID: <w2p32bc72071005061020ic4008f9exbddcd500d398be77@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I'm contemplating either "Fieldless, a wolf's head erased argent" or "Azure,
a wolf's head erased argent" as my badge, and got a result of

"An unknown record (type=`AZ') was found in the database." for "head -
beast- dog: erased argent"

I'm not sure what to make of this; basically I can't remember if that means
someone's got it or it's restricted or just what.  Help please!

Wulfstan
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From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com  Thu May  6 10:45:23 2010
From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:45:23 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Confusion about an online ordinary result
In-Reply-To: <w2p32bc72071005061020ic4008f9exbddcd500d398be77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <w2p32bc72071005061020ic4008f9exbddcd500d398be77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AB17CE5C-D21D-4663-90F5-04B4833D28EB@gmail.com>

What you got was a database error. For some reason it didn't  
understand the search query.

Richenda

Sent from my iPhone

On May 6, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Wulfstan Hrafnsson <wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com 
 > wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm contemplating either "Fieldless, a wolf's head erased argent" or  
> "Azure, a wolf's head erased argent" as my badge, and got a result of
>
> "An unknown record (type=`AZ') was found in the database." for "head  
> - beast- dog: erased argent"
>
> I'm not sure what to make of this; basically I can't remember if  
> that means someone's got it or it's restricted or just what.  Help  
> please!
>
> Wulfstan
> ===============================================
> Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list
> Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org
>       Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line  
> "help" (without quotes)
> or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org



From jdharcus at telus.net  Thu May  6 12:43:07 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 13:43:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Confusion about an online ordinary result
Message-ID: <25325262.1545367.1273174987701.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94>

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From jdharcus at telus.net  Sat May  8 06:57:02 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 06:57:02 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [Fwd: [antir-heralds] State of Heraldic Education
	Survey]
Message-ID: <4BE56DAE.7050902@telus.net>

forwarded for those on this list but not on the An Tir Heralds list

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[antir-heralds] State of Heraldic Education Survey
Date: 	Fri, 7 May 2010 22:33:59 -0700
From: 	William Mor <william_farquharson at hotmail.com>
To: 	An Tir Heralds <antir-heralds at antir.sca.org>



Unto the An Tir College of Arms,

Greetings from Lord William Mor, Deputy to Maeve Argent Scroll.


As a deputy to Argent Scroll, I am working to ascertain the state of heraldic education in An Tir. To that end, a survey has been posted online open to all heralds within our fair lands. So please pass along this message to any appropriate lists or heralds, especially the principality lists. The url for the survey is:

www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z5H6CMD

If you have any issue with the link, please let me know immediately. 

Please take the time to consider the questions and answer as best you 
can. The results will be tallied and presented to Black Lion for consideration on how to improve heraldic education in An Tir, so your answers are very important.

Thank you for your time and support of this effort.

In service to the College,


Lord William Mor
Deputy to Argent Scroll
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
_______________________________________________
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antir-heralds at antir.sca.org
http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds


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From tomas at noaharney.com  Sat May  8 08:35:23 2010
From: tomas at noaharney.com (Tomas)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 08:35:23 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [Fwd: [antir-heralds] State of Heraldic
	EducationSurvey]
In-Reply-To: <4BE56DAE.7050902@telus.net>
References: <4BE56DAE.7050902@telus.net>
Message-ID: <561CF394F70E431EB7F5F47BBA072FD1@Aslan>

Thank you for forwarding that.

I encourage all heralds to use this list more.  Send names and devices here to be conflict checked.  It's pretty much the same people doing it, but here the new heralds of our principality get to watch and participate in a smaller group so it's less intimidating.

-Tomas de Courcy


From: Judy Harcus 
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 6:57 AM
To: '(list) Tir Righ Heralds' 
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [Fwd: [antir-heralds] State of Heraldic EducationSurvey]


forwarded for those on this list but not on the An Tir Heralds list

-------- Original Message -------- Subject:  [antir-heralds] State of Heraldic Education Survey 
      Date:  Fri, 7 May 2010 22:33:59 -0700 
      From:  William Mor <william_farquharson at hotmail.com> 
      To:  An Tir Heralds <antir-heralds at antir.sca.org> 



Unto the An Tir College of Arms,

Greetings from Lord William Mor, Deputy to Maeve Argent Scroll.


As a deputy to Argent Scroll, I am working to ascertain the state of heraldic education in An Tir. To that end, a survey has been posted online open to all heralds within our fair lands. So please pass along this message to any appropriate lists or heralds, especially the principality lists. The url for the survey is:

www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z5H6CMD

If you have any issue with the link, please let me know immediately. 

Please take the time to consider the questions and answer as best you 
can. The results will be tallied and presented to Black Lion for consideration on how to improve heraldic education in An Tir, so your answers are very important.

Thank you for your time and support of this effort.

In service to the College,


Lord William Mor
Deputy to Argent Scroll
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
_______________________________________________
antir-heralds mailing list
antir-heralds at antir.sca.org
http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


===============================================
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From dangerdean at shaw.ca  Sat May  8 12:27:15 2010
From: dangerdean at shaw.ca (Dean MacPherson)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 12:27:15 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] submission question
Message-ID: <cf25b0162ba49.4be558a3@shaw.ca>

Greetings unto the list,

I've been a herald for many years, but I've stuck pretty much to voice heraldry, with the tiniest bits of book heraldry and administration. I haven't done much with submissions, so I thought I'd ask you folks.

Sir Alden and I took advantage of the heraldic consultation station at Estrella and submitted our name and device packages, with payment, at that event. We were told that they would only accept the package if there was an An Tirian herald present who was authorized to take the submissions, and there was, so they did.

I realize this is a process that takes a long time, but I'm curious how I find out what's up. These were submitted three months ago, but are not showing up anywhere on OSCAR. Have any of y'all seen these up for discussion anywhere? The names would be Alden ap Owain and Hra?i inn rakki.

Just curious,

Hra?i
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From bear_necessities at telus.net  Sat May  8 23:07:32 2010
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 23:07:32 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] submission question
In-Reply-To: <cf25b0162ba49.4be558a3@shaw.ca>
References: <cf25b0162ba49.4be558a3@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <C7E36B4883EF46499A450C9632B97D3C@NancyPC>

Hra?i wrote:
I realize this is a process that takes a long time, but I'm curious how I 
find out what's up. These were submitted three months ago, but are not 
showing up anywhere on OSCAR. Have any of y'all seen these up for discussion 
anywhere? The names would be Alden ap Owain and Hra?i inn rakki.
********************

Greetings Hra?i

Your submissions should have been on the next Internal Letter to the Heralds 
of An Tir-http://antirheralds.org/oscar/index.php?action=101 , but I've done 
a search myself of the last four letters and they do not show up.  This is 
actually unusual, and I am thinking that the herald in question may not have 
had an opportunity to pass them on to Lion's Blood in as timely a fashion as 
they would have liked.

The next step would be to contact the herald you gave them to, if you 
remember their name, and ask if they have been able to pass on your 
submissions.  If you write me privately, I might be able to help you with 
contact information.

Doireann 




From Caitrina at shaw.ca  Sun May  9 10:33:40 2010
From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 10:33:40 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] submission question
In-Reply-To: <cf25b0162ba49.4be558a3@shaw.ca>
References: <cf25b0162ba49.4be558a3@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <E598B62CD6CE41BDA6A0E5177EF4A3BF@carncats.ca>

Greetings Hra?i!

 

I will look into this right away and forward your inquiry to the Lions Blood
Herald to see if we can get some answers for you.  Stay tuned.

 

Caitrina 

 

  _____  

From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Dean MacPherson
Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 12:27 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] submission question

 

Greetings unto the list,

 

I've been a herald for many years, but I've stuck pretty much to voice
heraldry, with the tiniest bits of book heraldry and administration. I
haven't done much with submissions, so I thought I'd ask you folks.

 

Sir Alden and I took advantage of the heraldic consultation station at
Estrella and submitted our name and device packages, with payment, at that
event. We were told that they would only accept the package if there was an
An Tirian herald present who was authorized to take the submissions, and
there was, so they did.

 

I realize this is a process that takes a long time, but I'm curious how I
find out what's up. These were submitted three months ago, but are not
showing up anywhere on OSCAR. Have any of y'all seen these up for discussion
anywhere? The names would be Alden ap Owain and Hra?i inn rakki.

 

Just curious,

 

Hra?i

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From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Sun May  9 22:33:14 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 22:33:14 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Confusion about an online ordinary result
In-Reply-To: <25325262.1545367.1273174987701.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94>
References: <25325262.1545367.1273174987701.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94>
Message-ID: <l2n232740311005092233ted626abay8a3411d1c51c3ee7@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm contemplating either "Fieldless, a wolf's head erased argent" or "Azure,
> a wolf's head erased argent" as my badge,

Not sure how you're searching, but there's a huge hole in that
collection of terms: couped.  No heraldic difference between erased
and couped, and if you were specifically searching on erased you'd
have missed all couped heads.  And then there are the fielded returns
against anything you might devise with a field. 'Azure, a fox's mask
argent' is a conflict with one CD for posture of the head. Searching
on words is dangerous.  Heck, there's at least one canine's head
that's blazoned without neck treatment: '(Fieldless) A wolf's head
ululant gules.'  So even if you think you're clever and search
'couped' also, you miss it.

You did hit Beast - Dog, though, so you don't need to see my litany on
all the terms registered that mean 'canine' and get no difference and
elude searches on specific words (like, oh, terrier for instance...)
:)

Note Alicia pulled up Head - Beast - Dog and scanned the category.
She might have plugged 'erased' into her browser search, as all her
cites were erased heads.  If so, same problem as above. She missed all
couped heads.  She's right (and could have found it in Laurel
precedents) that there's zero difference for treatment of the neck, be
it couped, couped close, erased, erased close, or anything else (once
upon a time in the early days erased might have been blazoned
'rayonny' in some spelling or another - there are several).

George of Glen Laurie - August of 1979 (via Caid): Azure, a St.
Bernard dog's head couped at the neck bearing a cask at its neck, all
proper. [Canis familiaris extrariis St. Bernardi]
Against the azure fielded proposal there is just one CD for head tincture.

Now the good news - clearing conflict is easy because the design is so
good. Charge the head (on the neck, that's the period spot) with a
good heraldic charge. A mullet, heart or saltorel would be highly
identifiable and wonderfully period. German armory uses gouttes on
heads. I've even seen a bird (martlet or the like, clean lines)
charging a period canine's head.  Pick something you like (not a
sword, not a cross moline) and make the tertiary charge azure. I
checked and that motif ought to be clear, at least in the fieldless
version. On a field it'd depend on what's already registered.  Fielded
badges are a pain anyway; you need to splotch on a blob of color in
standard heraldic shape of display. Fieldless can go _anywhere_. :)

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com  Mon May 10 12:39:37 2010
From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 12:39:37 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Confusion about an online ordinary result
In-Reply-To: <l2n232740311005092233ted626abay8a3411d1c51c3ee7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25325262.1545367.1273174987701.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94>
	<l2n232740311005092233ted626abay8a3411d1c51c3ee7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimIgxNrNAm0roBH9a3HmHAWxAMlrbv5aykY8c7J@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the info and suggestion.  I hadn't even thought about checking
under "couped".  Nor had I considered putting a teritary charge on the
beastie, though I really like that idea.  I'm still relatively new to this
side of heraldry, having done mostly voice stuff so far, but I'm getting the
impression that the best way to use the Ordinary is to use the broadest
search terms feasible (obviously "Beast" is too broad if you're looking for
dogs) and then run down the list, possibly refining the terms if an initial
result is too broad, rather than using specific terms as one would on a
Google- or some database searches.  Have I got the right idea there?

Wulfstan

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Teceangl <tierna.britt at gmail.com> wrote:

> > I'm contemplating either "Fieldless, a wolf's head erased argent" or
> "Azure,
> > a wolf's head erased argent" as my badge,
>
> Not sure how you're searching, but there's a huge hole in that
> collection of terms: couped.  No heraldic difference between erased
> and couped, and if you were specifically searching on erased you'd
> have missed all couped heads.  And then there are the fielded returns
> against anything you might devise with a field. 'Azure, a fox's mask
> argent' is a conflict with one CD for posture of the head. Searching
> on words is dangerous.  Heck, there's at least one canine's head
> that's blazoned without neck treatment: '(Fieldless) A wolf's head
> ululant gules.'  So even if you think you're clever and search
> 'couped' also, you miss it.
>
> You did hit Beast - Dog, though, so you don't need to see my litany on
> all the terms registered that mean 'canine' and get no difference and
> elude searches on specific words (like, oh, terrier for instance...)
> :)
>
> Note Alicia pulled up Head - Beast - Dog and scanned the category.
> She might have plugged 'erased' into her browser search, as all her
> cites were erased heads.  If so, same problem as above. She missed all
> couped heads.  She's right (and could have found it in Laurel
> precedents) that there's zero difference for treatment of the neck, be
> it couped, couped close, erased, erased close, or anything else (once
> upon a time in the early days erased might have been blazoned
> 'rayonny' in some spelling or another - there are several).
>
> George of Glen Laurie - August of 1979 (via Caid): Azure, a St.
> Bernard dog's head couped at the neck bearing a cask at its neck, all
> proper. [Canis familiaris extrariis St. Bernardi]
> Against the azure fielded proposal there is just one CD for head tincture.
>
> Now the good news - clearing conflict is easy because the design is so
> good. Charge the head (on the neck, that's the period spot) with a
> good heraldic charge. A mullet, heart or saltorel would be highly
> identifiable and wonderfully period. German armory uses gouttes on
> heads. I've even seen a bird (martlet or the like, clean lines)
> charging a period canine's head.  Pick something you like (not a
> sword, not a cross moline) and make the tertiary charge azure. I
> checked and that motif ought to be clear, at least in the fieldless
> version. On a field it'd depend on what's already registered.  Fielded
> badges are a pain anyway; you need to splotch on a blob of color in
> standard heraldic shape of display. Fieldless can go _anywhere_. :)
>
> - Teceangl
> --
> KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org
>
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From jdharcus at telus.net  Mon May 10 13:37:21 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:37:21 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Confusion about an online ordinary result
In-Reply-To: <l2n232740311005092233ted626abay8a3411d1c51c3ee7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25325262.1545367.1273174987701.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94>
	<l2n232740311005092233ted626abay8a3411d1c51c3ee7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BE86E81.2040007@telus.net>

Teceangl wrote:

>Note Alicia pulled up Head - Beast - Dog and scanned the category.
>She might have plugged 'erased' into her browser search, as all her
>cites were erased heads.  If so, same problem as above. She missed all
>couped heads.  
>
Nope - I just missed it. 
I didn't use the 'search' at all - just went to the ordinary and looked 
under Head - Beast -Dog (both sole primary and group primary).

Alicia.





From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Tue May 11 03:23:09 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 03:23:09 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Confusion about an online ordinary result
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimIgxNrNAm0roBH9a3HmHAWxAMlrbv5aykY8c7J@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25325262.1545367.1273174987701.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94> 
	<l2n232740311005092233ted626abay8a3411d1c51c3ee7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimIgxNrNAm0roBH9a3HmHAWxAMlrbv5aykY8c7J@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilCQB3om9Sp-nofojrPxOa99kNYCUpMse37o-mk@mail.gmail.com>

> Thanks for the info and suggestion.? I hadn't even thought about checking
> under "couped".? Nor had I considered putting a teritary charge on the
> beastie, though I really like that idea.? I'm still relatively new to this
> side of heraldry, having done mostly voice stuff so far, but I'm getting the
> impression that the best way to use the Ordinary is to use the broadest
> search terms feasible (obviously "Beast" is too broad if you're looking for
> dogs) and then run down the list, possibly refining the terms if an initial
> result is too broad, rather than using specific terms as one would on a
> Google- or some database searches.? Have I got the right idea there?

Not quite, but good try.  Persevere and you'll learn this stuff, trust
me.  Just being on the list is the most powerful thing you can do to
become a good herald. We work together to teach, learn, and figure out
the obscurities.

Here's how you do it:
http://oanda.sca.org/ordinary/index.html

That's it.  All laid out in alphabetical order, with cross-references.
 Simply pull up the correct letter and find the entry you need, then
start reading.  If you look for Dragon under D, it points you to
Monster - Dragon.  Then you find wyverns, which get no difference from
dragons, because the category contains them both.  No need to try to
figure out search terms, it's all compiled for you.
Oh, you do still need to remember that, for instance, all quadrupeds
are only one CD from their sea-monster types and check there, as well,
but you don't need to try to figure out of shamrocks get difference
from 3-leafed clovers, they're listed together under Foil - Trefoil.

So bookmark that URL and use it exclusively.  If you do need search
forms at some later time, there's a link to them from there (I use 'em
to see if, say, anyone's registered a narfing iron yet).  But once you
see that alphabetical list, you're on your way to a nice, thorough
conflict check.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com  Wed May 12 01:14:39 2010
From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 01:14:39 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far
Message-ID: <AANLkTilI50OKGmMaJcYOoVdnm7JX0jtUm5O7fF7SqiL8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all!

I decided that a good way to learn this stuff would be to do a (relatively)
full conflict check on my own name, device and badge.  I've included my
thought process and sources for such findings as I've come up with, so any
double-checking that anyone is willing to do would be remarkably
appreciated.  I'm good at second-guessing, but seldom in a useful way.

Here's what I am looking at submitting for myself:
*
Name: Wulfstan Hrafnsson*
*
** This fits the [given] + [patronymic] pattern for Norse names given by the
Kingdom of the West College of Heralds in their article at:
http://heralds.westkingdom.org/ClassHandouts/CommonNamingPatterns.htm#ByCulture.
I'm not registering a byname until I've done something sufficiently
remarkable or silly to earn one in common usage.

* Neither part of the name has another form listed as a conflict issue by
Laurel:
http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents/CompiledNamePrecedents/ConflictTables.html

* "Wulfstan" appears to be supported by Bardsley, 331 (1996 ed; reference in
entry on "Gouldstone") and by Searle (1969 ed; entries on 188, 506 and
519).  All appear to be 10th century, as is my persona.  There were also two
11th century Northumbrian bishops of the name, one who died in 1023 and was
Bishop of London and Worcester and Archbishop of York, and a St Wulfstan
(1008-95).

* If someone could check out Geirr Bassi re: "Hrafn" and/or "Hrafnsson" I
would be most appreciative!  I might even make cookies!  I don't have access
to a hard copy at the moment (though I haven't been to the library as yet)
and Google Books doesn't have it, though it does have a couple of other
topic books that use it as a source.

* I have found a College of St Gabriel report supporting "Hrafnsdottir" as a
patronymic; would this then also support the similar use of "Hrafnsson"?
There is also one supporting "Hrafn" alone as a male given name.

ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 3143
http://www.s-gabriel.org/3143

ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 3198
http://www.s-gabriel.org/3198

* I realise that "Wulfstan" is an English name and "Hrafn", used as a name,
is Norse (it mainly seems to be Icelandic; though "hrafn" is also the Old
English for "raven" it may not have been used as a name in England in my
period).  This would be my weirdness.  Some would say that's not my only
weirdness, but it's the only one pertaining to my name.
*
Device: Per chevron azure and argent, two wolf's heads erased to sinister
argent and a Celtic harp vert.*

Potential conflicts:

   - Bleyddyn ap
Rhys<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Bleyddyn%20ap%20Rhys>
      - The following device associated with this name was registered in
      March of 1992 (via
Caid)<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1992&m1=March&y2=1992&m2=March&kC=checked>
      :
      *Per chevron <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+chevron>
azure<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure>and
      argent <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>, two wolf's heads
      erased <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased>
argent<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>and a
      drakkar <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=drakkar>
sable<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=sable>
      .*

As far as I can tell, I'd have only 1 CD from this.  Unless I get points for
both the form and the colour of the secondary charge?  Does the facing of
the wolf's heads make any difference?  Suggestions?  I'd be really good with
adding a chief or a bordure or something ridiculously easy like that.
Alternately I guess I could try to track the guy down and ask for permission
to conflict....

With a chief I'd need to be sure to avoid conflicting with:


   - Seamus MacOwen of
Kirkhill<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Seamus%20MacOwen%20of%20Kirkhill>
      - The following device associated with this name was registered in
      January of 1984 (via the
Middle)<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1984&m1=January&y2=1984&m2=January&kM=checked>
      :
      *Per chevron <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+chevron>
sable<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=sable>and
      Or <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=Or>, two wolf's heads
erased<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased>
      addorsed <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=addorsed>
argent<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>and a
      mullet <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=mullet>
azure<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure>,
      and on <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=on> a
chief<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=chief>
      Or <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=Or> three lozenges
azure<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure>
      .*

But it looks clear to me (1 CD for field colours, 1 CD for mullet vs harp, 1
CD for lozenges on the chief).  Yes?

I'm also okay making the field division nebuly or wavy or some such, or
going per saltire and adding a harp, having the harps in pale and the wolf's
heads in fess, which I think is still 2 CD from:

   - Anne Kent <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Anne%20Kent>
      - The following device associated with this name was registered in
      March of 1985 (via the
Middle)<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1985&m1=March&y2=1985&m2=March&kM=checked>
      :
      *Per saltire <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+saltire>
azure<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure>and
      argent <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>, in
pale<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=in+pale>two foxes' masks and
in
      fess <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=in+fess> two
roses<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=rose>
      counterchanged <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=counterchanged>.*

(1 CD for placement of canine crania, 1 CD for harps instead of roses... oh
and 1 CD for reversing the field division colours I suppose... I guess that
blazon would be: "Per saltire argent and azure, in pale two harps vert and
in fess two wolf's heads to sinister"?)

Actually the per saltire arrangement is more or less my second choice, and
if clear where the per chevron is not, probably what I'll go with.

I *think* I've also got 2+ CD's with:


   - Oriel y Cwn <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Oriel%20y%20Cwn>
      - The following device associated with this name was registered in
      December of 1995 (via
Trimaris)<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1995&m1=December&y2=1995&m2=December&kT=checked>
      :
      *Per chevron <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+chevron>
purpure<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=purpure>and
      vert <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=vert>, a
chevron<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=chevron>between two dog's
heads
      erased <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased> and an oak leaf
      argent <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>.*

(1 CD for field colours, 1 CD for that chevron, 1 CD for the oak leaf)

Overall, harps look pretty clear, and if I never have to conflict check
something with dogs in it again, I'll be okay with that.  I think I looked
at about 500 devices and badges on that charge type alone.

*Badge: Fieldless, a wolf's head erased to sinister argent charged with a
Celtic harp vert.*

Potential conflict:

   - Nikolai Domingo de
Vallejo<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Nikolai%20Domingo%20de%20Vallejo>
      - The following badge associated with this name was registered in
      August of 2009 (via
Ealdormere)<http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=2009&m1=August&y2=2009&m2=August&km=checked>
      :
      *(Fieldless <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=fieldless>) A wolf's
      head bendwise <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=bendwise>
contourny<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=contourny>
      erased <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased>
argent<http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>
      .*

I'm not really clear on what the term "contourny" means, so I'm not sure if
this would have a conflict with my proposed badge.  I also don't recall if
badges need 1 CD or 2.  I know the tertiary charge will help, but I don't
know if it will help enough.

Okay, teachy-learny time: what have I missed?

Wulfstan

PS. Thank you to Mistress Alicia and Tecangl for the resources used to check
this stuff out.
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From jdharcus at telus.net  Wed May 12 11:16:27 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 11:16:27 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
 Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 1 - NAME
Message-ID: <4BEAF07B.8010201@telus.net>

My original attempt to post this got bounced by the list as being too 
big, so I'm reposting it with separate messages for name, device and badge.

PART 1 - Name

Wulfstan Hrafnsson wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> I decided that a good way to learn this stuff would be to do a 
> (relatively) full conflict check on my own name, device and badge.  
> I've included my thought process and sources for such findings as I've 
> come up with, so any double-checking that anyone is willing to do 
> would be remarkably appreciated.  I'm good at second-guessing, but 
> seldom in a useful way.

This is an excellent way to learn and I encourage other people to do 
this as well.  It helps to show what you do understand well as well as 
what you might have missed.  A large portion of my learning was done 
this way.

>
> Here's what I am looking at submitting for myself:
>
> Name: Wulfstan Hrafnsson
>
> * This fits the [given] + [patronymic] pattern for Norse names given 
> by the Kingdom of the West College of Heralds in their article at: 
> http://heralds.westkingdom.org/ClassHandouts/CommonNamingPatterns.htm#ByCulture.  
> I'm not registering a byname until I've done something sufficiently 
> remarkable or silly to earn one in common usage.
>
> * Neither part of the name has another form listed as a conflict issue 
> by Laurel:
> http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents/CompiledNamePrecedents/ConflictTables.html
>
> * "Wulfstan" appears to be supported by Bardsley, 331 (1996 ed; 
> reference in entry on "Gouldstone") and by Searle (1969 ed; entries on 
> 188, 506 and 519).  All appear to be 10th century, as is my persona.  
> There were also two 11th century Northumbrian bishops of the name, one 
> who died in 1023 and was Bishop of London and Worcester and Archbishop 
> of York, and a St Wulfstan (1008-95). 
>
> * If someone could check out Geirr Bassi re: "Hrafn" and/or 
> "Hrafnsson" I would be most appreciative!  I might even make cookies!  
> I don't have access to a hard copy at the moment (though I haven't 
> been to the library as yet) and Google Books doesn't have it, though 
> it does have a couple of other topic books that use it as a source.
>
> * I have found a College of St Gabriel report supporting 
> "Hrafnsdottir" as a patronymic; would this then also support the 
> similar use of "Hrafnsson"?  There is also one supporting "Hrafn" 
> alone as a male given name.
>
>ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 3143
>http://www.s-gabriel.org/3143
>
>ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 3198
>http://www.s-gabriel.org/3198
>
>
>  
>
> * I realise that "Wulfstan" is an English name and "Hrafn", used as a 
> name, is Norse (it mainly seems to be Icelandic; though "hrafn" is 
> also the Old English for "raven" it may not have been used as a name 
> in England in my period).  This would be my weirdness.  Some would say 
> that's not my only weirdness, but it's the only one pertaining to my name.

A check on the lingual weirdness table 
http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/sca/weirdness_table.html confirms that 
Norse combined with either English or Old English is registerable but a 
weirdness (step from period practice).  Considering the dates, it looks 
to me like Wulfstan is Old English.

I don't have the books to confirm Wulfstan and without seeing the exact 
quotes from those books (hint, hint) I can't comment other than to say 
it sounds like it's supported.

Here's another article (from the Medieval Names Archive) regarding the 
construction of Norse names:  
http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/sg-viking.html.  This looks 
like it supports the construction Hrafnsson based on Hrafnsdottir (names 
are not my strong point, so perhaps someone else will comment here too).
There are some websites listed at the bottom of the St Gabriel reports - 
it's worth checking those too.
Here's additional support for Hrafn: 
http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html
Hrafn is listed in Geirr Bassi on page 11 with a count of 17.

Did you do a conflict check on the name?  This is where the name pattern 
search form http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_np.cgi is useful.  You should 
check partial names and variations (such as Hrafn, rafn, Raven, Wolf, 
etc.).  Post a message showing how you searched, and what you found that 
was close.

Alicia

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From jdharcus at telus.net  Wed May 12 11:17:04 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 11:17:04 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
 Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 2 - DEVICE
Message-ID: <4BEAF0A0.7010707@telus.net>

My original attempt to post this got bounced by the list as being too 
big, so I'm reposting it with separate messages for name, device and badge.

PART 2 - Device

Wulfstan Hrafnsson wrote:

>
> Device: Per chevron azure and argent, two wolf's heads erased to 
> sinister argent and a Celtic harp vert.

Pull out your Rules for Submission http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html.
First thing is to check for Style issues (parts VIII and IX).  This 
looks okay.

>
> Potential conflicts:
>
>     * Bleyddyn ap Rhys
>       <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Bleyddyn%20ap%20Rhys>
>           o The following device associated with this name was
>             registered in March of 1992 (via Caid)
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1992&m1=March&y2=1992&m2=March&kC=checked>:
>             Per chevron
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+chevron> azure
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure> and argent
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>, two wolf's
>             heads erased <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased>
>             argent <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent> and a
>             drakkar <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=drakkar>
>             sable <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=sable>.
>
> As far as I can tell, I'd have only 1 CD from this.  Unless I get 
> points for both the form and the colour of the secondary charge?  Does 
> the facing of the wolf's heads make any difference?  Suggestions?  I'd 
> be really good with adding a chief or a bordure or something 
> ridiculously easy like that.  Alternately I guess I could try to track 
> the guy down and ask for permission to conflict....

For this we go to Part X of the Rules for Submission (hereafter referred 
to as RfS)
Both devices have primary charges so we can skip X.1.
Both devices have similar primary charges (the wolf's heads) so X.2 
doesn't apply, so skip it.
X.3 only applies to branch devices, etc. so skip it.
Now we're down to X.4.  We need two CDs from here to clear this.
X.4.a - Field difference - same field, nothing here.
X.4.b - Addition/deletion of charges of the field - both have two on the 
top and one on the bottom, nothing here.
X.4.c - Addition/deletion of charges overall - doesn't apply to either.
X.4.d - Tincture changes - okay, let's check this out: "Changing the 
tinctures or division of any group of charges placed directly on the 
field, including strewn charges or charges overall is one clear difference."
 - Questions: 1) Are the heads and the harp one charge group or two?  2) 
Your comment indicates you believe the harp and drakkar are secondary 
charges - why?
 - Check the Glossary of Terms: http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html. 
"Charge Group.
A set of charges used together in a design as a single unit. The charges 
in groups in heraldry usually fall into standard arrangements depending 
on their number and what other items are involved in the design. A 
collection of charges that are arranged in such a standard arrangement 
are considered a single group, even if they are of different types 
and/or tinctures. For example, Per fess argent and gules, two towers 
sable and a roundel argent contains a single group of primary charges in 
the standard charge arrangement of two and one. See also Peripheral 
Charge Group, Primary Charge Group, Secondary Charge Group, Slot Machine 
Heraldry, and Tertiary Charge Group."
"Primary Charge Group.
The most important group of charges in a piece of armory. In blazons, 
the primary charge group is usually mentioned immediately after the 
field (though a strewn charge group is not primary when it is blazoned 
before a central charge group). If there is a central ordinary lying 
entirely on the field, it is the primary charge. If there is no such 
central ordinary, then the primary charge group is the set of charges of 
the same size that lie in the center of the design and directly on the 
field. An overall charge can never be the primary charge. In any piece 
of armory with charges there will always be a primary charge group, 
unless the only charges are peripheral. There cannot be more than one 
primary charge group in any given design. In Gules, a pale between two 
mullets argent, the pale is the primary charge. In Or, a maunche between 
three roundels azure the maunche is the primary charge. In Per chevron 
argent and sable, two roses and a fleur-de-lys counterchanged and on a 
chief purpure three hearts argent, the roses and fleur-de-lys are the 
primary charge group, because they are all of about the same size and in 
a standard arrangement. In Azure semy of mullets and a chief argent the 
strewn mullets are the primary charge group; in Azure semy of mullets, 
an eagle and a chief argent the eagle is the primary charge. In Sable, a 
lion Or, overall a bend argent, the lion is the primary charge. In 
Azure, a chief Or there is no primary charge group. See also Overall 
Charge Group, Peripheral Charge Group, Secondary Charge Group, Semy, 
Tertiary Charge Group."
"Secondary Charge Group.
A group of charges on the field around the primary charge group. A 
design may have more than one secondary charge group. Each group may 
confer difference independently. In Gules, a pale between two mullets 
argent, the mullets are the secondary charge group. The secondary 
charges in Or, a maunche between three roundels azure are the roundels. 
In Sable, a chevron cotised argent between three millrinds Or there are 
two secondary charge groups, the cotises and the millrinds. In Per 
chevron argent and sable, two roses and a fleur-de-lys counterchanged 
and on a chief purpure thee hearts argent, the chief is the secondary 
charge group. A peripheral charge group is a type of secondary charge 
group. See also Charge Group, Peripheral Charge Group, Primary Charge 
Group, Semy, Tertiary Charge Group."

The example under Primary Charge Group gives us that information: "Per 
chevron argent and sable, two roses and a fleur-de-lys counterchanged 
and on a chief purpure three hearts argent, the roses and fleur-de-lys 
are the primary charge group, because they are all of about the same 
size and in a standard arrangement.".  So your device has one primary 
charge group consisting of three charges - two heads and a harp. 

However, there is one other thing to check out - does the harp, being in 
the lower part of the field, count as one third or one half of the group 
when calculating difference in tincture?
Let's check the precedents: http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents.html
Starting at the most recent (reign of Elizabeth de Rossignol), I found 
(under the heading CHARGE GROUP):
"[Per bend sable and argent, two fox's heads erased argent and another 
sable.] This is returned for conflict with Batu Chinua, Per chevron 
sable and argent, two wolf's heads erased and a rose counterchanged. 
There is a CD for changes to the field. There is no difference between a 
wolf's head and a fox's head. Nor is there a CD for changing one of the 
charges (the rose) to a fox's head. As the charges are not arranged two 
and one, the precedent allowing a CD for changing the base-most charge 
does not apply. Nor does the precedent granting a CD for two changes to 
the charges on one side of a line of division apply - as explained under 
the heading Group Theory in the November 1995 Cover Letter - as only the 
type has changed (from an argent rose to an argent fox's head). [Renard 
le Fox de Berwyk, 10/05 
<http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2005/10/05-10lar.html>, R-An Tir]"
This doesn't state exactly what we're looking for but suggests looking 
at the November 1995 Cover Letter would be a good idea. 
The Cover Letters are part of the Laurel Letters: 
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/.  Selecting November 1995, I selected the 
cover letter.  Hmm, that's odd - I don't see anything here.

Oh well, back to looking at the precedents.
Under the precedents of Francois la Flamme 2nd tenure, I found a similar 
precedent but again not explicit so looked further.
Nothing under Shauna's tenure.

Aha! Under the precedents of Francois' first tenure I found:
"There is a second CD for changing the tincture of the charge in base, 
as the basemost of a group of charges two and one is considered to be 
half the group:

    After much thought and discussion, it has been decided, for purposes
    of X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the bottommost
    of three charges, either on the field alone or around an ordinary,
    is defined as one-half of the group...multiple changes to the
    basemost of three charges under this definition will be granted a
    maximum of one CVD. (CL 9/6/90 p.2)

[Letia Thistelthueyt, 12/01 
<http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/2001/12/01-12lar.html>, A-Atlantia]"

This time I did locate the original cover letter 
http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1990/08/1990-08cl.html which states in full:
"After much thought and discussion, it has been decided, for purposes of 
X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the bottommost of three 
charges, either on the field alone or around an ordinary, is defined as 
one-half of the group. While I do not regard this definition as 
necessarily the ideal fix, it will solve most of the problems which have 
led to the return of a number of pieces of armory recently which most 
commenters seem to agree ought to be sufficiently clear. I am not 
certain in my own mind but that the total amount of difference which can 
be obtained for changes to one of three charges should be limited to one 
CVD - that is to say, changing the type and tincture of the bottommost 
of three charges, either alone on the field or around an ordinary, would 
not be worth two CVDs. I would appreciate your commentary on this. For 
now, however, multiple changes to the basemost of three charges under 
this definition will be granted a maximum of one CVD."

I have the feeling there may be another precedent around this that I'm 
not locating right now.

However, this does tell us that there is a CD for changing the tincture 
and type of the bottom charge, though possibly only one.
So let's continue with the RfS.

X.d.e - Type changes - nothing here in regards to the top charges
X.d.f - Number changes - nothing here
X.d.g - Arrangement changes - two and one vs two and one - nothing here
X.d.h - Posture changes - aha!  "Significantly changing the posture or 
individual orientation of charges in any group placed directly on the 
field, including strewn charges or charges overall is one clear 
difference".  Orientation includes the change from facing to dexter or 
facing to sinister (the latter also called contourny). 
So there is your second CD - for the orientation of the heads.
Your device is clear of Bleyddyn's.

> With a chief I'd need to be sure to avoid conflicting with:
>
>     * Seamus MacOwen of Kirkhill
>       <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Seamus%20MacOwen%20of%20Kirkhill>
>
>           o The following device associated with this name was
>             registered in January of 1984 (via the Middle)
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1984&m1=January&y2=1984&m2=January&kM=checked>:
>             Per chevron
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+chevron> sable
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=sable> and Or
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=Or>, two wolf's heads
>             erased <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased>
>             addorsed <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=addorsed>
>             argent <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent> and a
>             mullet <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=mullet> azure
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure>, and on
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=on> a chief
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=chief> Or
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=Or> three lozenges
>             azure <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure>.
>
> But it looks clear to me (1 CD for field colours, 1 CD for mullet vs 
> harp, 1 CD for lozenges on the chief).  Yes?

Yes.  X.4.a gives you the field difference, X.4.d/e (as above) for 
changing the bottom charge, and X.4.j adding charges to charges.  There 
might also be one for the tincture of the chief, depending on whether 
yours is argent or Or.

>
> I'm also okay making the field division nebuly or wavy or some such, 
> or going per saltire and adding a harp, having the harps in pale and 
> the wolf's heads in fess, which I think is still 2 CD from:
>
>     * Anne Kent <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Anne%20Kent>
>           o The following device associated with this name was
>             registered in March of 1985 (via the Middle)
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1985&m1=March&y2=1985&m2=March&kM=checked>:
>             Per saltire
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+saltire> azure
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure> and argent
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>, in pale
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=in+pale> two foxes'
>             masks and in fess
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=in+fess> two roses
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=rose> counterchanged
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=counterchanged>.
>
> (1 CD for placement of canine crania, 1 CD for harps instead of 
> roses... oh and 1 CD for reversing the field division colours I 
> suppose... I guess that blazon would be: "Per saltire argent and 
> azure, in pale two harps vert and in fess two wolf's heads to sinister"?)
>
> Actually the per saltire arrangement is more or less my second choice, 
> and if clear where the per chevron is not, probably what I'll go with.

Add the tincture for the wolf's heads and the blazon looks okay to me.
Going back the RfS X.4.a (field difference), it states: "There is a 
clear difference for reversing the tinctures of a field evently divided 
into two parts, per saltire, or quarterly, but not for reversing the 
tinctures of  a field divided any other way; Per pale nebuly ermine and 
gules has one clear difference from Per pale nebuly gules and ermine...".
So yes, there is a CD for change to the field.  There is a CD by X.4.d 
for changing the tincture of half the primary charge group (azure to 
vert), there is a CD by X.4.e for changing half the type of the primary 
charge group (roses to harps), and another CD by X.4.h for changing the 
position of the heads (a mask is a head looking forward).
So no conflict here.

>
> I *think* I've also got 2+ CD's with:
>
>     * Oriel y Cwn <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Oriel%20y%20Cwn>
>           o The following device associated with this name was
>             registered in December of 1995 (via Trimaris)
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1995&m1=December&y2=1995&m2=December&kT=checked>:
>             Per chevron
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+chevron> purpure
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=purpure> and vert
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=vert>, a chevron
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=chevron> between two
>             dog's heads erased
>             <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased> and an oak
>             leaf argent <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>.
>
> (1 CD for field colours, 1 CD for that chevron, 1 CD for the oak leaf)

No conflict by X.1.  "Addition of primary charges - Armory does not 
conflict with any protected armory that adds or removes the primary 
charge group... For example, Argent, two mullets gules does not conflict 
with Argent, a pale between two mullets gules..."  The primary charge in 
Oriel's device is the chevron.  You don't need to go any further than that.

Overall, harps look pretty clear, and if I never have to conflict check 
something with dogs in it again, I'll be okay with that.  I think I 
looked at about 500 devices and badges on that charge type alone.

I don't have time to do a full double check at the moment to see if 
you've missed anything.

Alicia
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From jdharcus at telus.net  Wed May 12 11:18:12 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 11:18:12 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
 Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 3 - BADGE
Message-ID: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net>

My original attempt to post this got bounced by the list as being too 
big, so I'm reposting it with separate messages for name, device and badge.

PART 3 - Badge

Wulfstan Hrafnsson wrote:
Badge: Fieldless, a wolf's head erased to sinister argent charged with a 
Celtic harp vert.

Potential conflict:

    * Nikolai Domingo de Vallejo
      <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Nikolai%20Domingo%20de%20Vallejo>

          o The following badge associated with this name was registered
            in August of 2009 (via Ealdormere)
            <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=2009&m1=August&y2=2009&m2=August&km=checked>:
            (Fieldless <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=fieldless>)
            A wolf's head bendwise
            <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=bendwise> contourny
            <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=contourny> erased
            <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased> argent
            <http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent>.

I'm not really clear on what the term "contourny" means, so I'm not sure 
if this would have a conflict with my proposed badge.  I also don't 
recall if badges need 1 CD or 2.  I know the tertiary charge will help, 
but I don't know if it will help enough.
Contourny means facing sinister.
Badges need to be cleared the same as devices.  You need two CDs to 
clear any armory IF it can't be cleared under X.1 or X.2.  However, 
remember that you often need two 'differences' to count as one CD when 
looking at tertiary charges (RfS X.4.j).
Back to the RfS.
We're comparing two wolf's heads so we're down to X.4.
X.4.a.iii Fieldless difference is the one that applies here.  "A piece 
of fieldless armory automatically has one clear difference from any 
other armory, fielded or fieldless."
So there's the first CD.
Nothing for X.4.b, X.4.c, X.4.d, X.4.e, X.4.f, or X.4.g.
X.4.h Posture changes.  Nothing for 'to sinister' vs 'contourny' as they 
are the same thing.  However Nikolai's head is "bendwise" so there is a 
CD for changing it to the default "palewise".  Note: you can only get 
one CD for the category so if his head was "bendwise (to dexter)", you'd 
still only get one CD, not one for the change from dexter to sinister 
plus one for bendwise to palewise.
X.4.j Addition of Charges on Charges gives a third CD for the harp 
"Adding or removing any group of charges placed entirely on other 
charges in one clear difference".

>
> Okay, teachy-learny time: what have I missed?


Did you find these when checking your badge?

Dafydd MacDonald: (Fieldless) A greyhound's head erased argent collared 
vert.
One CD by X.4.a.iii for fieldless.
One CD by X.4.h for change of orientation to sinister.
That saves you from having to decide whether there's a CD for the collar 
or not.  There would be if it wasn't vert - a collar is considered a 
tertiary charge when on a head but not when on a whole beast (can you 
find the precedent that says this?), however as it's vert, you'd only 
have difference for type, nothing for tincture.

Phineas Magollricke: (Fieldless) A wolf's head erased argent charged 
with a cross moline gules.
One CD by X.4.a.iii for fieldless.
One CD by X.4.h for change of orientation to sinister.
One CD by X.4.j.i for cumulative changes to charges on charges.  Note 
that a wolf's head is not 'simple' so you need two differences to get 
this CD, which you have by change of tincture and change of type.

Stephen Wolfe: (Fieldless) A wolf's head erased within and conjoined to 
an annulet argent.
One CD by X.4.a.iii for fieldless.
One CD by X.4.b removing the annulet.
One CD by X.4.i for adding a charge on a charge.

John Wolfstan: (Fieldless) On a wolf's head erased ululant contourny 
argent a double rose gules.
One CD by X.4.a.iii for fieldless.
Nothing for posture.  Ululant (nose raised) is an SCA variation but does 
not give a difference.
One CD by X.4.j.i for cumulative changes to charges on charges.  Change 
of tincture and change of type.

George of Glen Laurie: Azure, a St. Bernard dog's head couped at the 
neck bearing a cask at its neck, all proper. [Canis familiaris extrariis 
St. Bernardi]
One CD by X.4.a.iii for fieldless.
This is on an azure field, so is likely predominantly white, therefore I 
wouldn't count on a CD for tincture.
Nothing for couped vs erased.
However there is one CD for orientation (default changed to sinister).
I'm guessing the cask would be similar to a collar and grant a CD by 
X.4.j.i but you've already got your two CDs.

Greyhope, Shire of: Azure, a greyhound's head erased contourny within a 
mascle argent.
One CD by X.4.a.iii for fieldless.
One CD by X.4.b for removing the annulet.
One CD by X.4.i for adding a charge on a charge.

Stefan von Bernhardt: Per bend sinister azure and vert, a wolf's head 
caboshed argent.
One CD by X.4.a.iii for fieldless.
One CD by X.4.h for orientation (caboshed changed to sinister).
One CD by X.4.i for adding a charge on a charge.

F?el?n MacFergus: Per bend sinister wavy sable and checky Or and gules, 
in canton a wolf's head erased contourny argent.
One CD by X.4.a.iii for fieldless.
No CD for arrangement as position doesn't make sense for fieldless.
One CD by X.4.i for adding a charge on a charge.

Dregel Alewulf: Quarterly sable and gules, a wolf's head erased 
contourny argent.
One CD by X.4.a.iii for fieldless.
One CD by X.4.i for adding a charge on a charge.

The badge looks clear.

Alicia
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From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com  Wed May 12 11:41:29 2010
From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 11:41:29 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and 	findings so far
In-Reply-To: <4BEAEC36.1010500@telus.net>
References: <AANLkTilI50OKGmMaJcYOoVdnm7JX0jtUm5O7fF7SqiL8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BEAEC36.1010500@telus.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimltQ0o7xGZ2UAIR1shFhBg_zGRUVY-gUxoleM_@mail.gmail.com>

Hi again!

Thanks Mistress Alicia for the feedback.  I remember most of those other
badges from my checking but spotted at least 2 CD with them so I didn't
worry about them.

I'm not sure whether I conflict checked the name or not - it was getting
pretty late the other night when I did the name part - so I'll do that now;
thanks for the reminder!

Good to know that I seem to be on the right track with my thought process
and have a sense of what I'm looking at.

Wulfstan


>
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From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com  Wed May 12 12:51:36 2010
From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:51:36 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Conflict checking my name
Message-ID: <AANLkTikAuQvWFEqPptb_hv_Auy0ijir6hkduGdPXXKeB@mail.gmail.com>

So I went to http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_np.cgi to conflict check my name.

First things first: I decided to check both names in their full forms before
looking at alternate spellings, parts of the names, etc.

So I entered "Wulfstan" under the broad, case-insensitive search.  I left
the number of results to display at 25 (to keep the page size reasonable to
look at) and got 30 hits.  (As an aside, a narrow search returned 29
results).  So I reset the display to 35 and tried again.  A few had Wulfstan
as a given name but all with quite different surnames, and some had it as a
surname.

A similar search for "Hrafnsson" returned only 10 results, all with very
different given names.

Searching for "Hrafn" returned 93 results, so I widened the display to show
95 results.  Nothing that appears to conflict.

Looking at the hints page on the search form, I decided to try allowing
alternate vowels.  So "W.lfst.n" got a try.  43 hits.  No obvious conflict.

For the patronymic, I tried ".r..nss.n" - the H is optional, the vowels
could be different, and there could be an F or a V.  42 hits this time.
This returned hits of "Hrafnssen", which I expected, and "Normansson", which
I didn't, as well as some other weirder ones.  No conflict that I could see,
so I took out an S to check again.  Only 13 hits for that, none even close.

Either the name is clear or I've missed something.  I'm hoping for the
former, personally.
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From jdharcus at telus.net  Wed May 12 13:42:49 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:42:49 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Conflict checking my name
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikAuQvWFEqPptb_hv_Auy0ijir6hkduGdPXXKeB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikAuQvWFEqPptb_hv_Auy0ijir6hkduGdPXXKeB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BEB12C9.2090802@telus.net>

I usually set the limit to the maximum 500.  It doesn't hurt to set the 
number high but if you set it too low, it misses some.  The limit isn't 
how many it will display per page, but how many it will display at all.  
If there are only 29 hits, and you set it to 500, you will still only 
get 29.

Your check could have missed some (for example if there had been a 
'ravensson' or 'wulffstan').

I prefer to find too many than too few.

I checked 'hrafn', 'rafn', 'raven', 'ravn'.
I checked '^w.lf' (but that had 527 hits so separately checked '^wulf', 
'^wolf'), '^ulf'.
I also tried '^w\S+l\S+s' to allow for multiple vowels or multiple 'f's.

I didn't find any conflicts either.

Alicia

Wulfstan Hrafnsson wrote:

> So I went to http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_np.cgi 
> <http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_np.cgi>to conflict check my name.
>
> First things first: I decided to check both names in their full forms 
> before looking at alternate spellings, parts of the names, etc. 
>
> So I entered "Wulfstan" under the broad, case-insensitive search.  I 
> left the number of results to display at 25 (to keep the page size 
> reasonable to look at) and got 30 hits.  (As an aside, a narrow search 
> returned 29 results).  So I reset the display to 35 and tried again.  
> A few had Wulfstan as a given name but all with quite different 
> surnames, and some had it as a surname.
>
> A similar search for "Hrafnsson" returned only 10 results, all with 
> very different given names.
>
> Searching for "Hrafn" returned 93 results, so I widened the display to 
> show 95 results.  Nothing that appears to conflict.
>
> Looking at the hints page on the search form, I decided to try 
> allowing alternate vowels.  So "W.lfst.n" got a try.  43 hits.  No 
> obvious conflict.
>
> For the patronymic, I tried ".r..nss.n" - the H is optional, the 
> vowels could be different, and there could be an F or a V.  42 hits 
> this time.  This returned hits of "Hrafnssen", which I expected, and 
> "Normansson", which I didn't, as well as some other weirder ones.  No 
> conflict that I could see, so I took out an S to check again.  Only 13 
> hits for that, none even close.
>
> Either the name is clear or I've missed something.  I'm hoping for the 
> former, personally.
>
>

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From tomas at noaharney.com  Wed May 12 13:43:54 2010
From: tomas at noaharney.com (Tomas)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:43:54 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 3 - BADGE
In-Reply-To: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net>
References: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net>
Message-ID: <31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan>

I can't seem to be able to visualize what this badge would look like.  What does it mean to have a wolfs head charged with a harp?

-Tomas de Courcy


From: Judy Harcus 
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 11:18 AM
To: Wulfstan Hrafnsson ; Tir Righ College of Heralds 
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name, Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 3 - BADGE


My original attempt to post this got bounced by the list as being too big, so I'm reposting it with separate messages for name, device and badge.

PART 3 - Badge

Wulfstan Hrafnsson wrote:
Badge: Fieldless, a wolf's head erased to sinister argent charged with a Celtic harp vert.

Potential conflict:

  a.. Nikolai Domingo de Vallejo 
    a.. The following badge associated with this name was registered in August of 2009 (via Ealdormere):
    (Fieldless) A wolf's head bendwise contourny erased argent. 
I'm not really clear on what the term "contourny" means, so I'm not sure if this would have a conflict with my proposed badge.  I also don't recall if badges need 1 CD or 2.  I know the tertiary charge will help, but I don't know if it will help enough.
Contourny means facing sinister.
Badges need to be cleared the same as devices.  You need two CDs to clear any armory IF it can't be cleared under X.1 or X.2.  However, remember that you often need two 'differences' to count as one CD when looking at tertiary charges (RfS X.4.j).
Back to the RfS.
We're comparing two wolf's heads so we're down to X.4.
X.4.a.iii Fieldless difference is the one that applies here.  "A piece of fieldless armory automatically has one clear difference from any other armory, fielded or fieldless."
So there's the first CD.
Nothing for X.4.b, X.4.c, X.4.d, X.4.e, X.4.f, or X.4.g.
X.4.h Posture changes.  Nothing for 'to sinister' vs 'contourny' as they are the same thing.  However Nikolai's head is "bendwise" so there is a CD for changing it to the default "palewise".  Note: you can only get one CD for the category so if his head was "bendwise (to dexter)", you'd still only get one CD, not one for the change from dexter to sinister plus one for bendwise to palewise.
X.4.j Addition of Charges on Charges gives a third CD for the harp "Adding or removing any group of charges placed entirely on other charges in one clear difference".
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From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed May 12 15:19:26 2010
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Nancy Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:19:26 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 3 - BADGE
In-Reply-To: <31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan>
References: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net>
	<31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan>
Message-ID: <C21DC1FD26C44E9AB59BD6ECF638D876@NancyPC>

Tomas wrote:
I can't seem to be able to visualize what this badge would look like.  What 
does it mean to have a wolfs head charged with a harp?
********************

It means that the harp is sitting entirely on the wolf's head.  Another way 
to blazon this badge would be:
(fieldless) On a wolf's head erased to sinister argent a celtic harp very.

Dori 




From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Thu May 13 06:50:02 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 06:50:02 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and 	findings so far - PART 1 - NAME
In-Reply-To: <4BEAF07B.8010201@telus.net>
References: <4BEAF07B.8010201@telus.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimxUi39pXoMF5WNn2UYTwYFJc7mroqhZkkiOpCe@mail.gmail.com>

> * I have found a College of St Gabriel report supporting "Hrafnsdottir" as a
> patronymic; would this then also support the similar use of "Hrafnsson"?

It has for several registrations of Hrafnsson, most recently Vi?arr
Hrafnsson in January of 2008.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From jdharcus at telus.net  Thu May 13 07:42:05 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 07:42:05 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
 Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilI50OKGmMaJcYOoVdnm7JX0jtUm5O7fF7SqiL8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilI50OKGmMaJcYOoVdnm7JX0jtUm5O7fF7SqiL8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BEC0FBD.9090301@telus.net>

Another place to get documentation for an Old English/ Anglo-Saxon name 
is PASE: http://www.pase.ac.uk/pase/apps/persons/index.html
There are a large number of 'Wulfstan's listed.

Alicia

Wulfstan Hrafnsson wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> I decided that a good way to learn this stuff would be to do a 
> (relatively) full conflict check on my own name, device and badge.  
> I've included my thought process and sources for such findings as I've 
> come up with, so any double-checking that anyone is willing to do 
> would be remarkably appreciated.  I'm good at second-guessing, but 
> seldom in a useful way.
>
> Here's what I am looking at submitting for myself:
>
> Name: Wulfstan Hrafnsson
>
> * This fits the [given] + [patronymic] pattern for Norse names given 
> by the Kingdom of the West College of Heralds in their article at: 
> http://heralds.westkingdom.org/ClassHandouts/CommonNamingPatterns.htm#ByCulture.  
> I'm not registering a byname until I've done something sufficiently 
> remarkable or silly to earn one in common usage.
>
> * Neither part of the name has another form listed as a conflict issue 
> by Laurel:
> http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents/CompiledNamePrecedents/ConflictTables.html
>
> * "Wulfstan" appears to be supported by Bardsley, 331 (1996 ed; 
> reference in entry on "Gouldstone") and by Searle (1969 ed; entries on 
> 188, 506 and 519).  All appear to be 10th century, as is my persona.  
> There were also two 11th century Northumbrian bishops of the name, one 
> who died in 1023 and was Bishop of London and Worcester and Archbishop 
> of York, and a St Wulfstan (1008-95). 
>

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From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Thu May 13 08:45:41 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 08:45:41 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 2 - DEVICE
In-Reply-To: <4BEAF0A0.7010707@telus.net>
References: <4BEAF0A0.7010707@telus.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilin52_D08w-EahAFSBAtfD40wiNvNrC3C3JYHI@mail.gmail.com>

Reminder, muchly for myself, that the design in question is:
> Device: Per chevron azure and argent, two wolf's heads erased to sinister
> argent and a Celtic harp vert.

> Aha! Under the precedents of Francois' first tenure I found:
> "There is a second CD for changing the tincture of the charge in base, as
> the basemost of a group of charges two and one is considered to be half the
> group:
>
> After much thought and discussion, it has been decided, for purposes of
> X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the bottommost of three
> charges, either on the field alone or around an ordinary, is defined as
> one-half of the group...multiple changes to the basemost of three charges
> under this definition will be granted a maximum of one CVD. (CL 9/6/90 p.2)
>
> [Letia Thistelthueyt, 12/01, A-Atlantia]"
>
> This time I did locate the original cover letter
> http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1990/08/1990-08cl.html which states in full:
> "After much thought and discussion, it has been decided, for purposes of
> X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the bottommost of three
> charges, either on the field alone or around an ordinary, is defined as
> one-half of the group. While I do not regard this definition as necessarily
> the ideal fix, it will solve most of the problems which have led to the
> return of a number of pieces of armory recently which most commenters seem
> to agree ought to be sufficiently clear. I am not certain in my own mind but
> that the total amount of difference which can be obtained for changes to one
> of three charges should be limited to one CVD - that is to say, changing the
> type and tincture of the bottommost of three charges, either alone on the
> field or around an ordinary, would not be worth two CVDs. I would appreciate
> your commentary on this. For now, however, multiple changes to the basemost
> of three charges under this definition will be granted a maximum of one
> CVD."
>
> I have the feeling there may be another precedent around this that I'm not
> locating right now.

Fields divided in two parts have a special rule.  Let's see if *I* can
find it...

"While commentary was somewhat split on this issue, the general
feeling was that to modify the Rules to define half a group by line of
division or as those charges on either side of an ordinary would only
serve to encourage unbalanced armory. On the other hand, there are
times when the visual impact of changes to charges which amount to
'less than half the group' should be granted more difference. As a
consequence, we are adopting Lady Dolphin's (now Lady Crescent)
suggestion of allowing two changes to the minority of a group (i.e.,
the 'lesser' half of a group of charges lying on either side of a line
of field division or an ordinary) being sufficient for a Clear
Difference. For example, 'Per bend sinister sable and Or, a decrescent
moon Or and three fir trees proper' would be allowed two CDs from 'Per
bend sinister azure and argent, a bear's head argent and three fir
trees vert' with one CD for the field and another for the two changes
to the charge in dexter chief." (CL 12/21/91 pps. 1-2).

Finding this led me on a merry chase to see if it had ever been
applied, or if only the one you found (still in force, by the way) had
been.

I'd suggested in the [August, 1992] LoAR that we might consider the
line of division to divide the group into "halves", regardless of the
numbers involved. The College in general disapproved of my proposal,
saying it would encourage poor style; and after reading the arguments,
I'm inclined to agree. (R?ognhach MacLeod, October, 1992, pg. 34)

Upheld, or at least not more liberally applied.

That was it.  The rest I find all arrange the charges 2 and 1, so they
don't specifically apply and can rely on the more common ruling.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:07:37 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:07:37 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 2 - DEVICE
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilin52_D08w-EahAFSBAtfD40wiNvNrC3C3JYHI@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BEAF0A0.7010707@telus.net>
	<AANLkTilin52_D08w-EahAFSBAtfD40wiNvNrC3C3JYHI@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinwUs0hsrn0Pbio-k6Aa7ACYsz_xFm52M-48FO1@mail.gmail.com>

> Reminder, muchly for myself, that the design in question is:
>> Device: Per chevron azure and argent, two wolf's heads erased to sinister
>> argent and a Celtic harp vert.

Which I was going to conflict check...

Irene Murdoch Fockxworth - September of 1984 (via Atenveldt): Per
chevron azure and Or, two foxes' heads erased and addorsed argent, in
base a fleur-de-lis vert.
X.4.a. CD for changing the tincture of half the field (note this is
really the only time one should think 'half the field tincture' - when
the lines of division are identical).
Okay, nothing for turning only one head around.  We need to rely on a
type-only CD for that harp...

[Per chevron throughout purpure and argent, two estoiles argent and a
dragonfly vert. ]
This device is clear of conflict with Katya Anna Sylvan, Per chevron
throughout purpure and argent, two compass stars argent and a fox
sejant gules. There is a second CD for changing the tincture of the
charge in base, as the basemost of a group of charges two and one is
considered to be half the group:
   After much thought and discussion, it has been decided, for purposes of
   X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the bottommost of three
   charges, either on the field alone or around an ordinary, is defined as
   one-half of the group...multiple changes to the basemost of three charges
   under this definition will be granted a maximum of one CVD. (CL 9/6/90 p.2)
[Letia Thistelthueyt, 12/01, A-Atlantia]

We've got it.  X.4.e. CD and clear.


Bleyddyn ap Rhys - March of 1992 (via Caid): Per chevron azure and
argent, two wolf's heads erased argent and a drakkar sable.
We've been over this one, right?  X.4.e. CD for type change of charge
in base, X.4.h. CD for changing the orientation of the heads.


Galen ? Seanach?in - May of 2001 (via Atenveldt): Per pall inverted
purpure, sable, and Or, two wolf's heads erased addorsed argent and a
tree blasted and couped vert.
X.4.a. field difference.  The precedent above doesn't say squat about
how the field's divided when dealing with charges 2 and 1, so count an
X.4.e. type change CD for the charge in base.


I don't find any conflicts, either.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:13:35 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:13:35 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 2 - DEVICE
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinwUs0hsrn0Pbio-k6Aa7ACYsz_xFm52M-48FO1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BEAF0A0.7010707@telus.net>
	<AANLkTilin52_D08w-EahAFSBAtfD40wiNvNrC3C3JYHI@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTinwUs0hsrn0Pbio-k6Aa7ACYsz_xFm52M-48FO1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimm7w37hiViqoX8yBxhaSYYOpqMGH4T2WjIUcsY@mail.gmail.com>

Reconsidering myself...

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Teceangl <tierna.britt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Reminder, muchly for myself, that the design in question is:
>>> Device: Per chevron azure and argent, two wolf's heads erased to sinister
>>> argent and a Celtic harp vert.
>
> Which I was going to conflict check...
>
> Irene Murdoch Fockxworth - September of 1984 (via Atenveldt): Per
> chevron azure and Or, two foxes' heads erased and addorsed argent, in
> base a fleur-de-lis vert.
> X.4.a. CD for changing the tincture of half the field (note this is
> really the only time one should think 'half the field tincture' - when
> the lines of division are identical).
> Okay, nothing for turning only one head around. ?We need to rely on a
> type-only CD for that harp...
>
> [Per chevron throughout purpure and argent, two estoiles argent and a
> dragonfly vert. ]
> This device is clear of conflict with Katya Anna Sylvan, Per chevron
> throughout purpure and argent, two compass stars argent and a fox
> sejant gules. There is a second CD for changing the tincture of the
> charge in base, as the basemost of a group of charges two and one is
> considered to be half the group:
> ? After much thought and discussion, it has been decided, for purposes of
> ? X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the bottommost of three
> ? charges, either on the field alone or around an ordinary, is defined as
> ? one-half of the group...multiple changes to the basemost of three charges
> ? under this definition will be granted a maximum of one CVD. (CL 9/6/90 p.2)
> [Letia Thistelthueyt, 12/01, A-Atlantia]
>
> We've got it. ?X.4.e. CD and clear.

You have two changes to the charge in base, type and tincture.  That
matches the precedent I cited in the other message, two changes makes
a CD.


> Bleyddyn ap Rhys - March of 1992 (via Caid): Per chevron azure and
> argent, two wolf's heads erased argent and a drakkar sable.
> We've been over this one, right? ?X.4.e. CD for type change of charge
> in base, X.4.h. CD for changing the orientation of the heads.

Type and tincture change again, guaranteed CD.

> Galen ? Seanach?in - May of 2001 (via Atenveldt): Per pall inverted
> purpure, sable, and Or, two wolf's heads erased addorsed argent and a
> tree blasted and couped vert.
> X.4.a. field difference. ?The precedent above doesn't say squat about
> how the field's divided when dealing with charges 2 and 1, so count an
> X.4.e. type change CD for the charge in base.

Only if I can justify a CD for a type-only change in base.  The
tincture matches.

[Argent, a fess counter-compony Or and azure between two crosses formy
and a lozenge sable.] The October 2001 Cover Letter noted "if a
real-world coat of arms is not considered important enough to protect
in the SCA, a CD will certainly suffice to remove any problem of
presumption due to the combination of name and armory." The issue of
presumption was raised based on the combination of the byname von
Kreuznach and the arms of Kreuznach, Argent, a fess countercompony Or
and azure between three crosses sable. There is a single CD for
changing the bottom most cross to a lozenge; however, as no evidence
was presented (or found) that the arms of Kreuznach are important
enough to protect, that CD is sufficient to allow registration.
[Margit von Kreuznach, 12/05, A-An Tir]

There!  Now it's clear.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:20:25 2010
From: wulfstan.hrafnsson at gmail.com (Wulfstan Hrafnsson)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:20:25 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 2 - DEVICE
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimm7w37hiViqoX8yBxhaSYYOpqMGH4T2WjIUcsY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BEAF0A0.7010707@telus.net>
	<AANLkTilin52_D08w-EahAFSBAtfD40wiNvNrC3C3JYHI@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinwUs0hsrn0Pbio-k6Aa7ACYsz_xFm52M-48FO1@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimm7w37hiViqoX8yBxhaSYYOpqMGH4T2WjIUcsY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimOg9Mh5xw46kflcTBD06R0juQyYVdPDZtfteDT@mail.gmail.com>

Now, I know the Cover Letters, *et c,* are the sort of thing that the
registration heralds and Laurel Sovereign of Arms and staff will review - is
it stuff that I should be including as documentation with my submission (or
would as the consulting herald doing someone else's arms)?  Or should I just
leave it for them to find, or what?
Wulfstan


On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Teceangl <tierna.britt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Reconsidering myself...
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Teceangl <tierna.britt at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Reminder, muchly for myself, that the design in question is:
> >>> Device: Per chevron azure and argent, two wolf's heads erased to
> sinister
> >>> argent and a Celtic harp vert.
> >
> > Which I was going to conflict check...
> >
> > Irene Murdoch Fockxworth - September of 1984 (via Atenveldt): Per
> > chevron azure and Or, two foxes' heads erased and addorsed argent, in
> > base a fleur-de-lis vert.
> > X.4.a. CD for changing the tincture of half the field (note this is
> > really the only time one should think 'half the field tincture' - when
> > the lines of division are identical).
> > Okay, nothing for turning only one head around.  We need to rely on a
> > type-only CD for that harp...
> >
> > [Per chevron throughout purpure and argent, two estoiles argent and a
> > dragonfly vert. ]
> > This device is clear of conflict with Katya Anna Sylvan, Per chevron
> > throughout purpure and argent, two compass stars argent and a fox
> > sejant gules. There is a second CD for changing the tincture of the
> > charge in base, as the basemost of a group of charges two and one is
> > considered to be half the group:
> >   After much thought and discussion, it has been decided, for purposes of
> >   X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the bottommost of
> three
> >   charges, either on the field alone or around an ordinary, is defined as
> >   one-half of the group...multiple changes to the basemost of three
> charges
> >   under this definition will be granted a maximum of one CVD. (CL 9/6/90
> p.2)
> > [Letia Thistelthueyt, 12/01, A-Atlantia]
> >
> > We've got it.  X.4.e. CD and clear.
>
> You have two changes to the charge in base, type and tincture.  That
> matches the precedent I cited in the other message, two changes makes
> a CD.
>
>
> > Bleyddyn ap Rhys - March of 1992 (via Caid): Per chevron azure and
> > argent, two wolf's heads erased argent and a drakkar sable.
> > We've been over this one, right?  X.4.e. CD for type change of charge
> > in base, X.4.h. CD for changing the orientation of the heads.
>
> Type and tincture change again, guaranteed CD.
>
> > Galen ? Seanach?in - May of 2001 (via Atenveldt): Per pall inverted
> > purpure, sable, and Or, two wolf's heads erased addorsed argent and a
> > tree blasted and couped vert.
> > X.4.a. field difference.  The precedent above doesn't say squat about
> > how the field's divided when dealing with charges 2 and 1, so count an
> > X.4.e. type change CD for the charge in base.
>
> Only if I can justify a CD for a type-only change in base.  The
> tincture matches.
>
> [Argent, a fess counter-compony Or and azure between two crosses formy
> and a lozenge sable.] The October 2001 Cover Letter noted "if a
> real-world coat of arms is not considered important enough to protect
> in the SCA, a CD will certainly suffice to remove any problem of
> presumption due to the combination of name and armory." The issue of
> presumption was raised based on the combination of the byname von
> Kreuznach and the arms of Kreuznach, Argent, a fess countercompony Or
> and azure between three crosses sable. There is a single CD for
> changing the bottom most cross to a lozenge; however, as no evidence
> was presented (or found) that the arms of Kreuznach are important
> enough to protect, that CD is sufficient to allow registration.
> [Margit von Kreuznach, 12/05, A-An Tir]
>
> There!  Now it's clear.
>
> - Teceangl
> --
> KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org
>
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From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Thu May 13 09:34:12 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:34:12 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 2 - DEVICE
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimOg9Mh5xw46kflcTBD06R0juQyYVdPDZtfteDT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BEAF0A0.7010707@telus.net>
	<AANLkTilin52_D08w-EahAFSBAtfD40wiNvNrC3C3JYHI@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTinwUs0hsrn0Pbio-k6Aa7ACYsz_xFm52M-48FO1@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimm7w37hiViqoX8yBxhaSYYOpqMGH4T2WjIUcsY@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimOg9Mh5xw46kflcTBD06R0juQyYVdPDZtfteDT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikDm-QY-d2WSR-pwcoYo9CZvAnCGDMiJMdlM8mT@mail.gmail.com>

> Now, I know?the Cover Letters,?et c,?are the sort of thing that the
> registration heralds and Laurel Sovereign of Arms and staff will review - is
> it stuff that I should be including as documentation with my submission (or
> would as the consulting herald doing someone else's arms)?? Or should I just
> leave it for them to find, or what?

You might want to include that ruling I pulled up for the CD, since
even I had to go hunt it up and others might argue _for_ conflict
without proof that type only change to the bottommost charge can get a
CD. (I'm being very, very arrogant here. I hardly know it all but do
tend to think if it's a precedent and I didn't easily remember it it
might be something less than generally known.  Or maybe I should just
go soak my head. :) )

If there is little doubt, such as the fact Laurel consistently rules
that neck treatment is not worth difference, don't bother.  But if
there's some niggling ruling that you had to search up because it's
not used very often, or there could be discussion in commentary that
tends to be not in your favor because the rules aren't clear (since
this situation is not covered in the RfS), include it to forestall the
slim possibility that nobody _else_will look it up and you get an
erroneous return.  It's rare, but can occur.

Precedents from LoARs and CLs are Appendix H sources, just copy &
paste the info onto a sheet of paper with your forms.  Lions Blood
will then include the information on both the Internal Letter of
submissions which is reviewed in-kingdom on our OSCAR Jr system, and
also the Letter of Intent sent to the College of Arms for
pre-registration review.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Thu May 13 10:47:18 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:47:18 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 3 - BADGE
In-Reply-To: <31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan>
References: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net>
	<31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin85yqg2WKufo6tiTX4Rfc8_nbZjVFuFbsLBAJk@mail.gmail.com>

> I can't seem to be able to visualize what this badge would look like.? What
> does it mean to have a wolfs head charged with a harp?

Usually the tertiary charge sits mostly on the neck, to keep the face
clear.  I did a really rough mockup:
http://www.rdrop.com/users/tierna/heraldry/wolf_head_harp.jpg

Used blue for the background because it was convenient.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From tomas at noaharney.com  Thu May 13 11:04:12 2010
From: tomas at noaharney.com (Tomas)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:04:12 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 3 - BADGE
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin85yqg2WKufo6tiTX4Rfc8_nbZjVFuFbsLBAJk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net>
	<31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan>
	<AANLkTin85yqg2WKufo6tiTX4Rfc8_nbZjVFuFbsLBAJk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C7A041BECAE4A1582F58C5F9AB1DA4E@Aslan>

Ahh, that makes sense.  Thank you.

I didn't understand how to put one complex charge on another.

-TdC

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Teceangl" <tierna.britt at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:47 AM
To: "Tomas" <tomas at noaharney.com>
Cc: "Tir Righ College of Heralds" <collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org>
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name, Device and Badge: My thoughts and 
findings so far - PART 3 - BADGE

>> I can't seem to be able to visualize what this badge would look like. 
>> What
>> does it mean to have a wolfs head charged with a harp?
>
> Usually the tertiary charge sits mostly on the neck, to keep the face
> clear.  I did a really rough mockup:
> http://www.rdrop.com/users/tierna/heraldry/wolf_head_harp.jpg
>
> Used blue for the background because it was convenient.
>
> - Teceangl
> -- 
> KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org 




From 42vince at gmail.com  Thu May 13 11:13:42 2010
From: 42vince at gmail.com (Colleen Vince)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:13:42 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Fwd: badge blazon
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin8oVEdVR4Vwa9mIYWBQ0K1YmnzmlJ1YX6-VfCi@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin8oVEdVR4Vwa9mIYWBQ0K1YmnzmlJ1YX6-VfCi@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik5KQUt-vxVb0qrCUMMf9SsKUjWSornnqD-Zu8A@mail.gmail.com>

** resending this without the attachment as it was being blocked due to its
size**

Hello Heralds.

I am having difficulties trying to blazon one of my new badges I want to
submit. I have mentioned it before at events, but thought I'd ask again when
people have access to resources.

The badge I was thinking on was a turnip that had a bite taken out of the
side. I was trying to figure out something with caboshed, erased, engrailed,
indented or couped. I just get more confused.

Any ideas.


-- 
Mary Ostler
Apprentice to Mistress Agnes Cresewyke
Lions Gate Game Marshal
www.maryostler.com
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From tomas at noaharney.com  Thu May 13 11:48:03 2010
From: tomas at noaharney.com (Tomas)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:48:03 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] I'll give this a try as well
In-Reply-To: <7C7A041BECAE4A1582F58C5F9AB1DA4E@Aslan>
References: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net><31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan><AANLkTin85yqg2WKufo6tiTX4Rfc8_nbZjVFuFbsLBAJk@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C7A041BECAE4A1582F58C5F9AB1DA4E@Aslan>
Message-ID: <D754819ECEC64DCDBEC9AD161F6A3376@Aslan>

Greetings;

I'm not certain that I'll submit this badge, but I felt that it was a good 
idea to try running it through the OandA.

Fieldless, on a pale vert three plates
or
Fieldless, on a pale vert three roundels argent

If I understand these two are the same.

Now, I get one CD for being fieldless.  I have a CD against anything with a 
different primary charge (pale vert).  Now if I understand this then, even 
though fieldless is a tincture difference I also have a CD against other 
tinctures of Pale.  So anything that was pale sable etc does not conflict.

So I'm looking for other pale verts with secondary or tertiary charges.

    Argent semy of oak leaves, on a pale vert a fleur-de-lys Or.
    Argent semy of strawberry leaves, on  a pale vert, a wolf salient 
argent.
    Argent semy-de-lys azure, on a pale vert a Celtic cross  argent.
    Argent, on a pale vert a crescent above three acorns Or.
There are a number of these that are similar, but am I correct in thinking 
that by having a different tertiary charge I have a CD?

    Argent, on a pale vert between in chief two wolves combattant sable 
three mullets  Or.
There are also a number like this with charges to the sides of the pale.  I 
assume that they would be secondary charges?  As long as they don't have the 
same tertiary charge as mine I am totally fine, correct?

Am I missing anything?

-TdC 




From jdharcus at telus.net  Thu May 13 13:42:04 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 13:42:04 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] I'll give this a try as well
In-Reply-To: <D754819ECEC64DCDBEC9AD161F6A3376@Aslan>
References: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net><31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan><AANLkTin85yqg2WKufo6tiTX4Rfc8_nbZjVFuFbsLBAJk@mail.gmail.com>	<7C7A041BECAE4A1582F58C5F9AB1DA4E@Aslan>
	<D754819ECEC64DCDBEC9AD161F6A3376@Aslan>
Message-ID: <4BEC641C.8050009@telus.net>

Tomas wrote:

> Greetings;
>
> I'm not certain that I'll submit this badge, but I felt that it was a 
> good idea to try running it through the OandA.
>
> Fieldless, on a pale vert three plates
> or
> Fieldless, on a pale vert three roundels argent
>
> If I understand these two are the same.

Yes, these are identical as a plate is a fancy way of saying roundel argent.

First let's check for style issues.  Check the Rules for Submission 
VIII.5 Fieldless Style.  "Fieldless armory must form a self-contained 
design.  A fieldless design must have all its elements conjoined, like 
the three feathers issuinf form a crown used by the Heir Apparent to the 
throne of England.  Since there is no field in such a design, it may not 
use charges that rely on the edges of the field to define their shape, 
such as bordures and orles, nor to cut off their ends, such as 
ordinaries or charges throughout."

So what does a pale couped look like?  A saltire couped is fairly 
obvious - it's an X.  To me, a pale couped would be the same as a billet 
(which is basically a tall rectangle).

Taking a look at the precedents, I couldn't find anything specific about 
allowing/disallowing a pale couped, however I did find this in the 
precedents of Elizabeth de Rossignol, under Fieldless:
"[(Fieldless) On a billet fesswise vert, seven annulets interlaced in 
fess Or.] This is returned for style problems. First, a billet is a 
shape used for heraldic display. This appears to be a display of Vert, 
seven annulets interlaced in fess Or. As precedent notes:

    We do not register fieldless badges which appear to be independent
    forms of armorial display. Charges such as lozenges, billets, and
    roundels are all both standard heraldic charges and "shield shapes"
    for armorial display. ...

Therefore, a "shield shape" which is also a standard heraldic charge 
will be acceptable as a fieldless badge in a plain tincture, as long as 
the tincture is not one of the plain tinctures that is protected armory 
in the SCA. This explicitly overturns the precedent "We do not normally 
register fieldless badges consisting only of forms of armorial display, 
such as roundels, lozenges and delfs in plain tinctures, since in use 
the shape does not appear to be a charge, but rather the field itself" 
(LoAR January 1998).Note that this does not change our long-standing 
policy about such "shield shape" charges used in fieldless badges if the 
tincture is not plain (thus, divided or with a field treatment), or if 
the charge is itself charged. Such armory will continue to be returned 
for the appearance of an independent form of armorial display.[Solveig 
Throndardottir, 04/02, A-?thelmearc] [Brion Gennadyevich Gorodin, 07/05 
<http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2005/07/05-07lar.html>, R-Trimaris]"

So I suspect that your proposed badge would be considered the same as 
"Vert, three plates".

Maybe Teceangl or someone can find additional information on this.

Alicia

>
> Now, I get one CD for being fieldless.  I have a CD against anything 
> with a different primary charge (pale vert).  Now if I understand this 
> then, even though fieldless is a tincture difference I also have a CD 
> against other tinctures of Pale.  So anything that was pale sable etc 
> does not conflict.
>
> So I'm looking for other pale verts with secondary or tertiary charges.
>
>    Argent semy of oak leaves, on a pale vert a fleur-de-lys Or.
>    Argent semy of strawberry leaves, on  a pale vert, a wolf salient 
> argent.
>    Argent semy-de-lys azure, on a pale vert a Celtic cross  argent.
>    Argent, on a pale vert a crescent above three acorns Or.
> There are a number of these that are similar, but am I correct in 
> thinking that by having a different tertiary charge I have a CD?
>
>    Argent, on a pale vert between in chief two wolves combattant sable 
> three mullets  Or.
> There are also a number like this with charges to the sides of the 
> pale.  I assume that they would be secondary charges?  As long as they 
> don't have the same tertiary charge as mine I am totally fine, correct?
>
> Am I missing anything?
>
> -TdC
>
> ===============================================
> Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list
> Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org
>       Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" 
> (without quotes)
> or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org
>

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From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Thu May 13 22:32:05 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 22:32:05 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] My Name,
	Device and Badge: My thoughts and findings so far - PART 3 - BADGE
In-Reply-To: <7C7A041BECAE4A1582F58C5F9AB1DA4E@Aslan>
References: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net>
	<31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan> 
	<AANLkTin85yqg2WKufo6tiTX4Rfc8_nbZjVFuFbsLBAJk@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7C7A041BECAE4A1582F58C5F9AB1DA4E@Aslan>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikcOdACh4Pyw0yoNFkkJ2UMH9TWwV3-j6Cs-s4J@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, this answer is flip...

> I didn't understand how to put one complex charge on another.

Carefully.

Flip but I mean it. While it was practiced in period armory, one
complex charge on another can be death to identifiability if not done
right.  On the wolf's head, obscuring the face would be a bad idea
(and look pretty lousy, too), and you also must make sure your
tertiary charge is _entirely_ upon the underlying charge.  No part may
overlap the edge.  If you want an overall charge, there are special
rules (at least one of the two charges in the design must be long and
skinny, overlap must be minimal, the overall charge must go across and
touch the field - fieldless simply implies a colorless field, think a
sheet of glass - on at least two sides, and identifiability of both
charges must be retained) to be observed so a tertiary charfge 'barely
overall' faces return.
That's why I said charge the neck.  That's the period place to charge
a wolf's head and it gives the most room to work with.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Thu May 13 23:02:38 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 23:02:38 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Fwd: badge blazon
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik5KQUt-vxVb0qrCUMMf9SsKUjWSornnqD-Zu8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTin8oVEdVR4Vwa9mIYWBQ0K1YmnzmlJ1YX6-VfCi@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTik5KQUt-vxVb0qrCUMMf9SsKUjWSornnqD-Zu8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinoDgYcKgX5YjcSFuNH799eenQZpXPw_sKQ6031@mail.gmail.com>

> I am having difficulties trying to blazon one of my new badges I want to
> submit. I have mentioned it before at events, but thought I'd ask again when
> people have access to resources.
>
> The badge I was thinking on was a turnip that had a bite taken out of the
> side. I was trying to figure out something with caboshed, erased, engrailed,
> indented?or couped. I just get more confused.

Bitten.

A turnip bitten in dexter chief <tincture>.

I thoroughly believe this is blazonable (if my blazon isn't good
enough, the CoA will figure one out).  And stranger things have
happened in period armory.

If you can't web the picture, I'll do it for you, just send it directly to me.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From tomas at noaharney.com  Tue May 18 11:05:05 2010
From: tomas at noaharney.com (Tomas)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 11:05:05 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] I'll give this a try as well
In-Reply-To: <4BEC641C.8050009@telus.net>
References: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net><31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan><AANLkTin85yqg2WKufo6tiTX4Rfc8_nbZjVFuFbsLBAJk@mail.gmail.com>	<7C7A041BECAE4A1582F58C5F9AB1DA4E@Aslan>
	<D754819ECEC64DCDBEC9AD161F6A3376@Aslan>
	<4BEC641C.8050009@telus.net>
Message-ID: <A9672AA6C28B439D8A7101AF3A38FB05@Aslan>

Thank you.  Hmm... Would Vert Three Plates pass?  I can't find anything else with three plates or even three roundels.  Though I suspect that's just my inexperience.  Now, with Vert Three Plates that would mean that as long as I have a different primary charge than anything else it would pass, correct?  Or would Vert Three Random other things conflict with me?

-TdC


From: Judy Harcus 
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:42 PM
To: Tomas 
Cc: (list) Tir Righ Heralds 
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] I'll give this a try as well


Tomas wrote:

  Greetings; 

  I'm not certain that I'll submit this badge, but I felt that it was a good idea to try running it through the OandA. 

  Fieldless, on a pale vert three plates 
  or 
  Fieldless, on a pale vert three roundels argent 

  If I understand these two are the same. 

Yes, these are identical as a plate is a fancy way of saying roundel argent.

First let's check for style issues.  Check the Rules for Submission VIII.5 Fieldless Style.  "Fieldless armory must form a self-contained design.  A fieldless design must have all its elements conjoined, like the three feathers issuinf form a crown used by the Heir Apparent to the throne of England.  Since there is no field in such a design, it may not use charges that rely on the edges of the field to define their shape, such as bordures and orles, nor to cut off their ends, such as ordinaries or charges throughout."

So what does a pale couped look like?  A saltire couped is fairly obvious - it's an X.  To me, a pale couped would be the same as a billet (which is basically a tall rectangle). 

Taking a look at the precedents, I couldn't find anything specific about allowing/disallowing a pale couped, however I did find this in the precedents of Elizabeth de Rossignol, under Fieldless:
"[(Fieldless) On a billet fesswise vert, seven annulets interlaced in fess Or.] This is returned for style problems. First, a billet is a shape used for heraldic display. This appears to be a display of Vert, seven annulets interlaced in fess Or. As precedent notes: 
  We do not register fieldless badges which appear to be independent forms of armorial display. Charges such as lozenges, billets, and roundels are all both standard heraldic charges and "shield shapes" for armorial display. ...
Therefore, a "shield shape" which is also a standard heraldic charge will be acceptable as a fieldless badge in a plain tincture, as long as the tincture is not one of the plain tinctures that is protected armory in the SCA. This explicitly overturns the precedent "We do not normally register fieldless badges consisting only of forms of armorial display, such as roundels, lozenges and delfs in plain tinctures, since in use the shape does not appear to be a charge, but rather the field itself" (LoAR January 1998).Note that this does not change our long-standing policy about such "shield shape" charges used in fieldless badges if the tincture is not plain (thus, divided or with a field treatment), or if the charge is itself charged. Such armory will continue to be returned for the appearance of an independent form of armorial display.[Solveig Throndardottir, 04/02, A-?thelmearc] [Brion Gennadyevich Gorodin, 07/05, R-Trimaris]"

So I suspect that your proposed badge would be considered the same as "Vert, three plates".

Maybe Teceangl or someone can find additional information on this.

Alicia


  Now, I get one CD for being fieldless.  I have a CD against anything with a different primary charge (pale vert).  Now if I understand this then, even though fieldless is a tincture difference I also have a CD against other tinctures of Pale.  So anything that was pale sable etc does not conflict. 

  So I'm looking for other pale verts with secondary or tertiary charges. 

     Argent semy of oak leaves, on a pale vert a fleur-de-lys Or. 
     Argent semy of strawberry leaves, on  a pale vert, a wolf salient argent. 
     Argent semy-de-lys azure, on a pale vert a Celtic cross  argent. 
     Argent, on a pale vert a crescent above three acorns Or. 
  There are a number of these that are similar, but am I correct in thinking that by having a different tertiary charge I have a CD? 

     Argent, on a pale vert between in chief two wolves combattant sable three mullets  Or. 
  There are also a number like this with charges to the sides of the pale.  I assume that they would be secondary charges?  As long as they don't have the same tertiary charge as mine I am totally fine, correct? 

  Am I missing anything? 

  -TdC 

  =============================================== 
  Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list 
  Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org 
        Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" (without quotes) 
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From jdharcus at telus.net  Tue May 18 13:02:27 2010
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:02:27 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] I'll give this a try as well
Message-ID: <17767090.1793802.1274212947937.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edmwes94>

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From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Thu May 20 01:10:30 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 01:10:30 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] I'll give this a try as well
In-Reply-To: <4BEC641C.8050009@telus.net>
References: <4BEAF0E4.7060009@telus.net>
	<31B21B95C50C4E16BA36D8CA8FC8F3AD@Aslan> 
	<AANLkTin85yqg2WKufo6tiTX4Rfc8_nbZjVFuFbsLBAJk@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7C7A041BECAE4A1582F58C5F9AB1DA4E@Aslan>
	<D754819ECEC64DCDBEC9AD161F6A3376@Aslan> 
	<4BEC641C.8050009@telus.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimTb4HOVGFRRB98xlPBg5ovfA5kl1TpnsmeOZvi@mail.gmail.com>

> So I suspect that your proposed badge would be considered the same as "Vert,
> three plates".
>
> Maybe Teceangl or someone can find additional information on this.

So here I am sitting back figuring that Red Flame's got it handled,
and she invokes my name directly.  Sheesh, no rest for the weary. :)

First thing to figure out is whether a pale can be used for fieldless
armory.  The way to do that?  Look.

Tomas - this is the URL to use for conflict checking, always.  No
matter what you're looking for, start here:
http://oanda.sca.org/ordinary/index.html
You'll not miss so much in future. (I expect you might not have looked
for Plate using the Index, been sent to Roundel - Whole, then read
through Roundel - Whole - 3 or more - Argent, which is why you
overlooked the possible conflicts to 'Vert, three plates'.  S'okay,
this is how we learn.)

So for this, I get to look at Pale.  First thing under plain line
uncharged pales is '(Fieldless) A saltire couped Or overall a pale
couped argent', registered in 2004. Click on the name to see if that's
the original date or was it a reblazon of an earlier registration
(important, as pre-1990 blazons, sometimes even stuff blazoned up
until '95 or so, might use terms we wouldn't use today).  No reblazon,
this was registered in 2004, so we can probably trust the blazon.
Ergo, a pale couped may be used in a fieldless badge.

But it's not charged.  We need to see if a pale couped and charged has
been registered.  Onward to the appropriate category! (I'm punchy,
please forgive the levity.)  Start at the top of the charged plain
line pales and keep looking until we find one, or don't.

Argent, azure, fur, gules, multicolor, Or, purpure, sable, vert...  We
now have Crux Australis Principal Herald's seal memorized, but haven't
found a charged fieldless pale.  We can try complex lines next, and
score!  '(Fieldless) On a pale couped raguly gules, a griffin's head
erased Or collared sable.'  However, sometimes complex lines change
the rules (you may not charge a plain roundel as fieldless armory, you
may charge a roundel engrailed as fieldless armory, for instance).

So from here we look at the LoAR to see if Laurel said anything.
Everything can be found at heraldry.sca.org and LoARs are linkedd down
the left hand column.

January 2003...  Meh, nothing.  A note to the artist.  And no other
charged fieldless pales.
Two options - go through Laurel precedents (next link down from LoARs)
or extrapolate using a similar ordinary - the fess.  I honestly
suggest doing both.  Billets and pales couped being similar in shape
while fesses aren't, it merits a precedents check.

>From the top down, and considering alternate filing locations.  Pale,
also look for Ordinary, perhaps even Charge - Ordinary or somesuch.
Earlier compilations can be tough to find things in.  Sometimes I do
resort to searching on terms ("a pale" and "pale couped" so as to not
hit every per pale field listed), but only after looking through the
Contents and Index.  Some compilations have nothing; Da'ud's first
term is one of those. But I also looked under Couped and found this:

"There is no difference between [an ordinary] and [the same ordinary]
couped on fieldless armory." (LoAR 6/90 Symposium p.3).

Worth noting.

I emerge from compiled precedents sick of the category 'ordinary' and
with nothing we can use.  Time to look at fesses.  Straight to
charged, since we know they can be couped on fieldless armory.
'(Fieldless) On a bar couped vert a lion's paw escallop Or.'
Lyondemere, Barony of - September of 2001.  To the LoAR we go...
Not a word about it.  Just that the escallop type is grandfathered to them.

But it was allowed.  But it's a fess.

Back to Alicia's opinion that you might have a problem with the
comparison of a charged pale couped to a billet.  I will agree that
her consideration has much merit, since when you step away from period
style you need to work on the visual realities of the armory.

I did, however find this design:

Ansgar Otkelsson - February of 1992 (via Atlantia): (Fieldless) A pale
wavy within and conjoined to an annulet azure.

Do that with your pale and it's no longer a shape of heraldic display.
 Just a thought.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From Caitrina at shaw.ca  Sun May 23 09:35:14 2010
From: Caitrina at shaw.ca (Caitrina many hats MacAndrew)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 09:35:14 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] FW: [antir-heralds] KWHSS - but wait,
	there's more!
Message-ID: <CE6B94C77DBF4D46BD2D3223B92B7513@carncats.ca>



-----Original Message-----
From: antir-heralds-bounces at antir.sca.org
[mailto:antir-heralds-bounces at antir.sca.org] On Behalf Of Teceangl
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 3:59 AM
To: Discussions of SCA Heraldry; An Tir Heralds
Subject: [antir-heralds] KWHSS - but wait, there's more!

Please propagate this message wherever appropriate.


Because nothing is ever done when you think it is...

Remember those two TBAs on the KWHSS class schedule?  There are indeed
classes in those slots.

>From 2-3pm Saturday:
Admin at the Laurel Level (What happens to the paper?)
Instructor: Baroness Shauna of Carrick Point, Ragged Staff Herald
Overview of the administration of the CoA, focusing on the actual
paper trail. Will cover the path a submission takes once it leaves
Kingdom, as well as some tips for submissions heralds in ensuring
smooth sailing for their work. The Scanning protocols for current
files will be covered and the Archive project scanning will also be
touched on. Explanation of what is actually stored where, and how
things have been done in the past versus moving to the electronic age.

>From 4-5pm Saturday:
Using Precedents
Instructor: Jeanne Marie Lacroix, Noire Licorne Herald Extraordinary
This class will discuss how to find, use, and cite precedents,
including both compiled and uncompiled precedents.

Neither has a class fee.


If you have any questions regarding KWHSS, please contact me:
tierna at agora.rdrop.com
If it's urgent, call: 503-256-1891.  My schedule is really weird, so
leave a message and I _will_ get back to you ASAP.

- Teceangl Bach, KWHSS event steward
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org
_______________________________________________
antir-heralds mailing list
antir-heralds at antir.sca.org
http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds




From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Mon May 24 11:00:27 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 11:00:27 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Fwd: Note for all field heralds
In-Reply-To: <035FCBAE-A889-40FC-B410-4EF33C469A43@gmail.com>
References: <035FCBAE-A889-40FC-B410-4EF33C469A43@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimoaBLATdM-GobhbPOO5Kw7VBX_FOx5yv4jOUqd@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Constance Wyatt <constancewyatt at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, May 24, 2010 at 10:45 AM
Subject: [Summits Heralds] Note for all field heralds
To: Heralds Heralds <antir-heralds at antir.sca.org>, summits-heralds at antir.sca.org


Sorry if I am stepping on toes for posting this. I want to make sure
this gets posted before we forget this was brought up. Also, can
someone please post to the Avacal and Tir Righ lists as I am not on
them yet.

Before the Crown tourney began, a knight that I know someone knows the
name of and will post later, came over and asked the heralds
something. "Please do not announce 'victory to...' until you see the
marshals point." He said that this was an issue that has been coming
up in chivalry chats and has been a complaint. He added also that the
order should be (and I totally agree), the fighters decide who wins,
they tell the marshal, and then the marshal tells us and we tell the
populace around the field. I know we get excited, but we really should
make sure we wait. Something to help this is to make sure to tell the
marshals on your field that you will wait for them to point and to
please make sure to do so.

In Service to the Crown and the populace of An Tir,
Lady Constance Wyatt
Town Crier Pursuivant
"Pondera!" (Balance!)
Azure, in pale a lion statant Or and a rose argent, barbed vert,
seeded gules between flaunches Or
(Selfish plug) My Blog: http://constancewyattdiary.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
summits-heralds mailing list
summits-heralds at antir.sca.org
http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/summits-heralds




-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org



From tierna.britt at gmail.com  Mon May 24 15:51:43 2010
From: tierna.britt at gmail.com (Teceangl)
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 15:51:43 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Fwd: [antir-heralds] Note for all field heralds
In-Reply-To: <BLU103-W19BF901E19F876479865EBD8E70@phx.gbl>
References: <035FCBAE-A889-40FC-B410-4EF33C469A43@gmail.com> 
	<BLU103-W19BF901E19F876479865EBD8E70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimMqVydf_vJO0VCHTWpyxyYiyySBqFgeKV-g2fM@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Gwen Frost <gwenliancatharne at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, May 24, 2010 at 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [antir-heralds] Note for all field heralds
To: constancewyatt at gmail.com, An Tir Heralds List
<antir-heralds at antir.sca.org>, summits-heralds at antir.sca.org



Heralds of An Tir,



This issue is being addressed with both the Earl Marshall and the
Crown. Pray do not be hasty in making assumptions or statements that
we as a community will have cause to regret.



Thank you,

Gwenlian Black Lion

> From: constancewyatt at gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:45:13 -0700
> To: antir-heralds at antir.sca.org; summits-heralds at antir.sca.org
> Subject: [antir-heralds] Note for all field heralds
>
> Sorry if I am stepping on toes for posting this. I want to make sure this gets posted before we forget this was brought up. Also, can someone please post to the Avacal and Tir Righ lists as I am not on them yet.
>
> Before the Crown tourney began, a knight that I know someone knows the name of and will post later, came over and asked the heralds something. "Please do not announce 'victory to...' until you see the marshals point." He said that this was an issue that has been coming up in chivalry chats and has been a complaint. He added also that the order should be (and I totally agree), the fighters decide who wins, they tell the marshal, and then the marshal tells us and we tell the populace around the field. I know we get excited, but we really should make sure we wait. Something to help this is to make sure to tell the marshals on your field that you will wait for them to point and to please make sure to do so.
>
> In Service to the Crown and the populace of An Tir,
> Lady Constance Wyatt
> Town Crier Pursuivant
> "Pondera!" (Balance!)
> Azure, in pale a lion statant Or and a rose argent, barbed vert, seeded gules between flaunches Or
> (Selfish plug) My Blog: http://constancewyattdiary.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> antir-heralds mailing list
> antir-heralds at antir.sca.org
> http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds

_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4
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http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds




-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org