From bear_necessities at telus.net Mon Dec 10 21:18:16 2012 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:18:16 -0800 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Name and device help, please? Message-ID: Some requests have come my way, and I'm afraid that I do not have the time to deal with them at the moment. Can someone please help this person out? Desired device: http://www.flickr.com/photos/90588026 at N07/ The name requested is Alessandra Lucianna Giancomo, for a mid 1500s Venetian persona. Thank you! Doireann From bear_necessities at telus.net Mon Dec 10 21:37:57 2012 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:37:57 -0800 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Apologies - Re: Name and device help, please? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Desired device: http://www.flickr.com/photos/90588026 at N07/ I'm sorry, the desired device is the first one, on the far left. Doireann Silver Yale From jdharcus at telus.net Tue Dec 11 18:59:21 2012 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:59:21 -0800 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Name and device help, please? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50C7F309.2050209@telus.net> The device "Or, a ship in full sail between three cinquefoil vert all within a double tressure sable" appears to be clear. As far as I can tell, it's clear without the tressure as well (there are very few vert ships). As for the name - Appendix A of SENA says double given names are found in Italian names, so that's no problem. Documenting Alessandra is fairly easy. It can be found in the following documents: http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/italian.html Italian Renaissance Women's Names by Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale (Jo Lori Drake) http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcvenice.html Names from Sixteenth Century Venice by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/womensalpha.html A Listing of all Women's Given Names from the Condado Section of the Florence Catasto of 1427 by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) I have not found Lucianna anywhere. The closest is Lucia (found in all three documents above) and Luchina (found in the last document above). I have not found Giancomo but have found Giacomo (without the 'n') as a common male given name (also Giano, Giacomino, and several variation). It appears patronymic bynames were used but I'm not clear on the syntax (Giacomino as a given names seems to turn into Giacomini as a byname, so Giacomo might be Giacomi as a patronymic byname) and whether it should be preceded by 'di'. Appendix A of SENA says Italian patronymics are "Marked (as di B), multi-generational, unmarked, Latinized", "Italian is incredibly variable in period, with names from Venice, Tuscany, and the south all significantly different", "Latinized patronymic bynames usually are just the father's name in the genitive form, without filius/filia" and "Family names typically modify a patronym or byname by removing the last vowel (if there is one) and adding -i. Unmodified forms are found as well". I found these in: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/mensalpha.html A Listing of all Men's Given Names from the Condado Section of the Florence Catasto of 1427 by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/venicegivalpha.html Fifteenth Century Venetian Masculine Names: Given Names Alphabetically by Sara L. Uckelman known in the SCA as Aryanhwy merch Catmael http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/maridonna/milaneseNotaries/ Milanese Notaries 1396-1635 by Maridonna Benvenuti http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/name1.html LIST OF GIVEN NAMES (NAME1) FOUND IN THE TRE MAGGIORI http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/SURNAM1.html LIST OF SURNAMES (SURNAM1) IN THE TRE MAGGIORI http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/n-names.html A Note on Names. - Surnames. (SURNAM1, SURNAM2) says: "Surnames were often derived from patronymics (Alberti from Albero, Capponi from Cappone, Ridolfi from Ridolfo), although this was not automatic. The Capponi for instance, whose first prior was in 1287, adopted a stable surname only toward the middle of the fourteenth century. " There is one of the De Felice Italian name books in the Tir Righ Heraldic Library (I can't remember if it is first names or surnames - Dizionario dei [nomi or cognomi] italiani). Perhaps ask Aline to check and see if any of the names is in it, and what it says (it's in Italian so someone may need to translate). That's the best I can do without more information on where she found the name elements. Alicia Red Flame Morel Carr Zupanic wrote: > Some requests have come my way, and I'm afraid that I do not have the > time to deal with them at the moment. Can someone please help this > person out? > > Desired device: http://www.flickr.com/photos/90588026 at N07/ > > The name requested is Alessandra Lucianna Giancomo, for a mid 1500s > Venetian persona. > > Thank you! > > Doireann > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" > (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5450 - Release Date: 12/10/12 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bear_necessities at telus.net Tue Dec 11 19:31:35 2012 From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:31:35 -0800 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Name and device help, please? In-Reply-To: <50C7F309.2050209@telus.net> References: <50C7F309.2050209@telus.net> Message-ID: Wow, thank you so much! I will try to get more info on her name tomorrow. As pathetic as it may be, I am about ready to hit the sack. Dori ************************************ The device "Or, a ship in full sail between three cinquefoil vert all within a double tressure sable" appears to be clear. As far as I can tell, it's clear without the tressure as well (there are very few vert ships). As for the name - Appendix A of SENA says double given names are found in Italian names, so that's no problem. Documenting Alessandra is fairly easy. It can be found in the following documents: http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/italian.html Italian Renaissance Women's Names by Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale (Jo Lori Drake) http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcvenice.html Names from Sixteenth Century Venice by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/womensalpha.html A Listing of all Women?s Given Names from the Condado Section of the Florence Catasto of 1427 by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) I have not found Lucianna anywhere. The closest is Lucia (found in all three documents above) and Luchina (found in the last document above). I have not found Giancomo but have found Giacomo (without the 'n') as a common male given name (also Giano, Giacomino, and several variation). It appears patronymic bynames were used but I'm not clear on the syntax (Giacomino as a given names seems to turn into Giacomini as a byname, so Giacomo might be Giacomi as a patronymic byname) and whether it should be preceded by 'di'. Appendix A of SENA says Italian patronymics are "Marked (as di B), multi-generational, unmarked, Latinized", "Italian is incredibly variable in period, with names from Venice, Tuscany, and the south all significantly different", "Latinized patronymic bynames usually are just the father's name in the genitive form, without filius/filia" and "Family names typically modify a patronym or byname by removing the last vowel (if there is one) and adding ?i. Unmodified forms are found as well". I found these in: http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/mensalpha.html A Listing of all Men's Given Names from the Condado Section of the Florence Catasto of 1427 by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/venicegivalpha.html Fifteenth Century Venetian Masculine Names: Given Names Alphabetically by Sara L. Uckelman known in the SCA as Aryanhwy merch Catmael http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/maridonna/milaneseNotaries/ Milanese Notaries 1396-1635 by Maridonna Benvenuti http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/name1.html LIST OF GIVEN NAMES (NAME1) FOUND IN THE TRE MAGGIORI http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/SURNAM1.html LIST OF SURNAMES (SURNAM1) IN THE TRE MAGGIORI http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/n-names.html A Note on Names. - Surnames. (SURNAM1, SURNAM2) says: "Surnames were often derived from patronymics (Alberti from Albero, Capponi from Cappone, Ridolfi from Ridolfo), although this was not automatic. The Capponi for instance, whose first prior was in 1287, adopted a stable surname only toward the middle of the fourteenth century. " There is one of the De Felice Italian name books in the Tir Righ Heraldic Library (I can't remember if it is first names or surnames - Dizionario dei [nomi or cognomi] italiani). Perhaps ask Aline to check and see if any of the names is in it, and what it says (it's in Italian so someone may need to translate). That's the best I can do without more information on where she found the name elements. Alicia Red Flame -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdharcus at telus.net Tue Dec 11 20:43:05 2012 From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:43:05 -0800 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Name and device help, please? In-Reply-To: References: <50C7F309.2050209@telus.net> Message-ID: <50C80B59.7040708@telus.net> The ship could be designated instead as a 'caravel'. Alicia Morel Carr Zupanic wrote: > Wow, thank you so much! I will try to get more info on her name > tomorrow. As pathetic as it may be, I am about ready to hit the sack. > > Dori > > ************************************ > The device "Or, a ship in full sail between three cinquefoil vert all > within a double tressure sable" appears to be clear. > As far as I can tell, it's clear without the tressure as well (there > are very few vert ships). > > As for the name - > > Appendix A of SENA says double given names are found in Italian names, > so that's no problem. > > Documenting Alessandra is fairly easy. It can be found in the > following documents: > http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/italian.html Italian Renaissance > Women's Names by Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale (Jo Lori Drake) > http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/16thcvenice.html Names from > Sixteenth Century Venice by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) > http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/womensalpha.html A > Listing of all Women?s Given Names from the Condado Section of the > Florence Catasto of 1427 by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) > > I have not found Lucianna anywhere. The closest is Lucia (found in > all three documents above) and Luchina (found in the last document above). > > I have not found Giancomo but have found Giacomo (without the 'n') as > a common male given name (also Giano, Giacomino, and several > variation). It appears patronymic bynames were used but I'm not clear > on the syntax (Giacomino as a given names seems to turn into Giacomini > as a byname, so Giacomo might be Giacomi as a patronymic byname) and > whether it should be preceded by 'di'. Appendix A of SENA says > Italian patronymics are "Marked (as di B), multi-generational, > unmarked, Latinized", "Italian is incredibly variable in period, with > names from Venice, Tuscany, and the south all significantly > different", "Latinized patronymic bynames usually are just the > father's name in the genitive form, without filius/filia" and "Family > names typically modify a patronym or byname by removing the last vowel > (if there is one) and adding ?i. Unmodified forms are found as well". > > I found these in: > http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/condado/mensalpha.html A > Listing of all Men's Given Names from the Condado Section of the > Florence Catasto of 1427 by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) > http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/venicegivalpha.html > > Fifteenth Century Venetian Masculine Names: Given Names Alphabetically > by Sara L. Uckelman known in the SCA as Aryanhwy merch Catmael > http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/maridonna/milaneseNotaries/ Milanese > Notaries 1396-1635 by Maridonna Benvenuti > http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/name1.html LIST OF GIVEN > NAMES (NAME1) FOUND IN THE TRE MAGGIORI > http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/SURNAM1.html LIST OF > SURNAMES (SURNAM1) IN THE TRE MAGGIORI > > http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/n-names.html A Note on > Names. - Surnames. (SURNAM1, SURNAM2) says: > "Surnames were often derived from patronymics (Alberti from Albero, > Capponi from Cappone, Ridolfi from Ridolfo), although this was not > automatic. The Capponi for instance, whose first prior was in 1287, > adopted a stable surname only toward the middle of the fourteenth > century. " > > There is one of the De Felice Italian name books in the Tir Righ > Heraldic Library (I can't remember if it is first names or surnames - > Dizionario dei [nomi or cognomi] italiani). Perhaps ask Aline to > check and see if any of the names is in it, and what it says (it's in > Italian so someone may need to translate). > > That's the best I can do without more information on where she found > the name elements. > Alicia Red Flame > >> > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5452 - Release Date: 12/11/12 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bogfairy at shaw.ca Wed Dec 19 13:21:47 2012 From: bogfairy at shaw.ca (Joan Kew) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:21:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Name conflicts/permission to conflict In-Reply-To: <127171412.17682474.1355952078945.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet> Message-ID: <1733896146.17682853.1355952107262.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet> Greetings! I have been speaking with someone who would like to submit her name for registration, but there is a conflict. The proposed name is Anne Grey. There are already two others that I have found in other kingdoms: Anne Greye and Anne Gray. "My" Anne would really like to approach the other Annes to ask for permission to conflict but I'm not sure that it is normal procedure with names. I'm assuming the alternative would be to add another element to her name. I know that no two badges or devices can be identical, but I couldn't find any rules on names. If someone could direct me to it, or offer advice on this one, I'd really appreciate it. YIS, Hawise Blue Inkhorn From BasilD at lavabit.com Wed Dec 19 17:17:38 2012 From: BasilD at lavabit.com (Basil) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 17:17:38 -0800 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Name conflicts/permission to conflict In-Reply-To: <1733896146.17682853.1355952107262.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet> References: <1733896146.17682853.1355952107262.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet> Message-ID: <50D26732.3060304@lavabit.com> Joan Kew wrote: > Greetings! > > I know that no two badges or devices can be identical, but I > couldn't find any rules on names. If someone could direct me to it, > or offer advice on this one, I'd really appreciate it. You'll find it in SENA at GP.1.A: "...to provide sufficient difference from names and armory registered within the Society to avoid undue confusion, to avoid the appearance of unearned honors or false claims,..." Also, SENA GP.1.B.2: "A submission should not cause confusion, create a false claim, nor usurp identity or armory...." NB: a "submission" is not limited to armory; a proposed name is a submission. ~~Basil Dragonstrike Every dream has a blind side, a trapdoor that's tripped by doubt -- Webb Wilder, "The Rest (Will Take Care of Itself)" Peritia zmaragdus est; sapientia adam?s est. Compar?vistine impensae e?rum n?per? THIS LIFE IS ONLY A TEST. In the event of a Real Life you would be told where to go and what to do. THIS IS A TEST. REPEAT: THIS IS ONLY A TEST. From richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 18:29:56 2012 From: richenda.du.jardin at gmail.com (Richenda du Jardin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 18:29:56 -0800 Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Name conflicts/permission to conflict In-Reply-To: <50D26732.3060304@lavabit.com> References: <1733896146.17682853.1355952107262.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet> <50D26732.3060304@lavabit.com> Message-ID: <50D27824.4030505@gmail.com> A person can grant as much permission to conflict with their armory or name as they want. With names, that is often a close to identical name. What your "Anne" will need is a letter of permission to conflict from each of the registered Anne/Ann's. You can find a model letter in Appendix D. In general, people will grant permission to conflict as long as the name is similar, but not identical to - but there have been a few exceptions. Let me know if you need help contacting the other Anne/Ann's - I have heraldic friends in most kingdoms and am usually pretty good at tracking people down. Richenda On 12/19/2012 5:17 PM, Basil wrote: > Joan Kew wrote: >> Greetings! > >> >> I know that no two badges or devices can be identical, but I >> couldn't find any rules on names. If someone could direct me to it, >> or offer advice on this one, I'd really appreciate it. > > You'll find it in SENA at GP.1.A: "...to provide sufficient difference > from names and armory registered within the Society to avoid undue > confusion, to avoid the appearance of unearned honors or false > claims,..." > > Also, SENA GP.1.B.2: "A submission should not cause confusion, create > a false claim, nor usurp identity or armory...." NB: a "submission" is > not limited to armory; a proposed name is a submission. > > > ~~Basil Dragonstrike > > Every dream has a blind side, a trapdoor that's tripped by doubt -- > Webb Wilder, "The Rest (Will Take Care of Itself)" > > Peritia zmaragdus est; sapientia adam?s est. Compar?vistine impensae > e?rum n?per? > > THIS LIFE IS ONLY A TEST. > In the event of a Real Life you would be told where to go and what to do. > THIS IS A TEST. REPEAT: THIS IS ONLY A TEST. > > > =============================================== > Principality of Tir Righ College of Heralds mailing list > Unsubscribe: collegeofheralds-unsubscribe at tirrigh.org > Help: collegeofheralds-request at tirrigh.org, subject line "help" > (without quotes) > or http://mail.tirrigh.org/mailman/listinfo/collegeofheralds_tirrigh.org