From mhood at shaw.ca  Sun Jun 10 16:13:52 2012
From: mhood at shaw.ca (Mark Hood)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:13:52 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Fwd: [lionsgate] Looking for a Latin translation
In-Reply-To: <000601cd4536$25a25ac0$70e71040$@shaw.ca>
References: <000601cd4536$25a25ac0$70e71040$@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <4FD52A30.2010304@shaw.ca>

Thought I'd forward this to a group that just might know...

uilliam

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[lionsgate] Looking for a Latin translation
Date: 	Thu, 07 Jun 2012 22:18:32 -0700
From: 	Elena de Maisnilwarin <elena.de.maisnilwarin at shaw.ca>
To: 	Northern at antir.sca.org, lionsgate at antir.sca.org



Greetings to the Northern Road,

I am looking for a translation of the phrase "He who fails to plan is 
planning to fail".  It can be a variant thereof, e.g., "Failure to plan 
is a plan to fail".

If you can help, it'd be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Dame Elena de Maisnilwarin, OP

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_______________________________________________
lionsgate mailing list
lionsgate at antir.sca.org
http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/lionsgate

From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 01:20:54 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:20:54 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please - Per fess wavy argent and sable....
Message-ID: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>

Can I please get a second look at this device.  I didn't find any conflicts.

Per fess wavy argent and sable, a wolf passant regardant and a dragon galley 
affronty counterchanged.

Doireann Silver Yale 




From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 01:23:38 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:23:38 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please: Per saltire arrondi argent and sable
Message-ID: <B366830CC150416FBE5610AC5769E91E@OwnerPC>

I didn't find a conflict with this device, but would again appreciate 
another look, please.

Per saltire arrondi argent and sable.

Thank you,
Doireann 




From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 01:55:59 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:55:59 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Plausibility of surname Orkneyskaia
Message-ID: <DCF8F72FCBBE4695BA2EF6006DCFF677@OwnerPC>

http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/toprus.html
"Type IV locative bynames are created by taking the toponym and adding an 
adjectival suffix (usually "-skii"/"-skoi"/"-skyi," or feminine "-skaia"). 
Often, the form is found in the genitive case ("-skogo"). Regardless of how 
it appears, the meaning is the same: "the person of <place name>" or "the 
<place name>-ish person." The person is described as being colored by 
his/her place of birth, bearing the place (so to speak) in their soul."

The client in question is the daughter of a Varangian (Norse) man and a 
Russian woman from Kiev, an historically plausible persona, given the rule 
of the Norse over Rus in her chosen period.  She feels that it is plausible 
to have been born in Orkney, as this was also the period of time that the 
Norse populated that region.  I want to be sure that Orkneyskaia is a 
reasonable surname construction for her, before advising her to go ahead and 
submit, and I'd love to hear some learned opinions on this, if I could, 
please.

Doireann 




From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 02:43:59 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 02:43:59 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please (fieldless) A crow close sable
Message-ID: <3076EA2F1B664E90804AF438D9520C99@OwnerPC>

I cannot believe that this is free of conflict, so I am asking for a second 
look, please.

(fieldless) A crow close sable.

There are two pieces of armoury that gave me pause, but according to 
precedent are clear of conflict with my client's proposed badge.

Sancha de Flores   (August of 2003 via the East):
    (Fieldless) A cock sable, headed and queued gules.

Dietrich Kempenich von Eltz   (August of 2011 via Ansteorra):
    Argent, a brown hen proper.

>From The Tenure of Fran?ois la Flamme (August 2001 - April 2004):
"Birds in different categories are given substantial difference from each 
other as long as they meet the general requirements for substantial 
difference listed above." Poultry-shaped birds and regular shaped birds are 
in two different categories, according to this same precedent.

Doireann 




From bogfairy at shaw.ca  Wed Jun 13 06:44:07 2012
From: bogfairy at shaw.ca (Joan Kew)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:44:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please (fieldless) A crow close sable
In-Reply-To: <3076EA2F1B664E90804AF438D9520C99@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <1443778105.12526888.1339595047051.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>

Take 2, to the list this time ...

I don't have a learned opinion, but I have some questions. (*:

First (for Dori), what is her chosen time period?

Second (for anyone), if her time period involved a different spelling of Orkney, would that spelling have to be incorporated into the name, or would the modern spelling be [SCA] permissible?

Hawise

----- Original Message -----
From: "Morel Carr Zupanic" <bear_necessities at telus.net>
To: "AnTir Heralds" <antir-heralds at antir.sca.org>, collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:43:59 AM
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please (fieldless) A crow close sable

I cannot believe that this is free of conflict, so I am asking for a second 
look, please.

(fieldless) A crow close sable.

There are two pieces of armoury that gave me pause, but according to 
precedent are clear of conflict with my client's proposed badge.

Sancha de Flores   (August of 2003 via the East):
    (Fieldless) A cock sable, headed and queued gules.

Dietrich Kempenich von Eltz   (August of 2011 via Ansteorra):
    Argent, a brown hen proper.

>From The Tenure of Fran?ois la Flamme (August 2001 - April 2004):
"Birds in different categories are given substantial difference from each 
other as long as they meet the general requirements for substantial 
difference listed above." Poultry-shaped birds and regular shaped birds are 
in two different categories, according to this same precedent.

Doireann 


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From bogfairy at shaw.ca  Wed Jun 13 06:45:18 2012
From: bogfairy at shaw.ca (Joan Kew)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:45:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please (fieldless) A crow close sable
In-Reply-To: <1443778105.12526888.1339595047051.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>
Message-ID: <1366036637.12527954.1339595118876.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>

Sorry, too early ... what I meant was ...

I'd call that supreme luck on the part of the submitter! I looked for raven and corbie, in case you hadn't, and couldn't find anything. I'm not up on the oanda enough to rule out other non-poultry birds.

Hawise


----- Original Message -----
From: "Morel Carr Zupanic" <bear_necessities at telus.net>
To: "AnTir Heralds" <antir-heralds at antir.sca.org>, collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:43:59 AM
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please (fieldless) A crow close sable

I cannot believe that this is free of conflict, so I am asking for a second 
look, please.

(fieldless) A crow close sable.

There are two pieces of armoury that gave me pause, but according to 
precedent are clear of conflict with my client's proposed badge.

Sancha de Flores   (August of 2003 via the East):
    (Fieldless) A cock sable, headed and queued gules.

Dietrich Kempenich von Eltz   (August of 2011 via Ansteorra):
    Argent, a brown hen proper.

>From The Tenure of Fran?ois la Flamme (August 2001 - April 2004):
"Birds in different categories are given substantial difference from each 
other as long as they meet the general requirements for substantial 
difference listed above." Poultry-shaped birds and regular shaped birds are 
in two different categories, according to this same precedent.

Doireann 


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From bogfairy at shaw.ca  Wed Jun 13 06:46:24 2012
From: bogfairy at shaw.ca (Joan Kew)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:46:24 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Plausibility of surname Orkneyskaia
In-Reply-To: <DCF8F72FCBBE4695BA2EF6006DCFF677@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <1189908329.12528641.1339595184399.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>

Take 3, to the list AND opining on the right message ... can I go back to bed now?

I don't have a learned opinion, but I have some questions. (*:

First (for Dori), what is her chosen time period?

Second (for anyone), if her time period involved a different spelling of Orkney, would that spelling have to be incorporated into the name, or would the modern spelling be [SCA] permissible?

Hawise

----- Original Message -----
From: "Morel Carr Zupanic" <bear_necessities at telus.net>
To: "AnTir Heralds" <antir-heralds at antir.sca.org>, collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 1:55:59 AM
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Plausibility of surname Orkneyskaia

http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/toprus.html
"Type IV locative bynames are created by taking the toponym and adding an 
adjectival suffix (usually "-skii"/"-skoi"/"-skyi," or feminine "-skaia"). 
Often, the form is found in the genitive case ("-skogo"). Regardless of how 
it appears, the meaning is the same: "the person of <place name>" or "the 
<place name>-ish person." The person is described as being colored by 
his/her place of birth, bearing the place (so to speak) in their soul."

The client in question is the daughter of a Varangian (Norse) man and a 
Russian woman from Kiev, an historically plausible persona, given the rule 
of the Norse over Rus in her chosen period.  She feels that it is plausible 
to have been born in Orkney, as this was also the period of time that the 
Norse populated that region.  I want to be sure that Orkneyskaia is a 
reasonable surname construction for her, before advising her to go ahead and 
submit, and I'd love to hear some learned opinions on this, if I could, 
please.

Doireann 


===============================================
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From jdharcus at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 07:11:23 2012
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:11:23 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] cc please (fieldless) A crow
	close sable
In-Reply-To: <3076EA2F1B664E90804AF438D9520C99@OwnerPC>
References: <3076EA2F1B664E90804AF438D9520C99@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4FD89F8B.9070504@telus.net>

I agree that the ones you found would be clear with one CD/DC for 
fieldless and a second for type of bird, as would Else H?nrvogt 
(December of 2004 via the West): Barry gules and Or, a chicken sable.

However, I believe this is a conflict: Serlo of Litchfield (December of 
1985 via Atenveldt): Gyronny gules and Or, a vulture close sable.
There is only one CD/DC for the field.

It also conflicts with: Dafydd Wallraven (June of 1998 via Lochac): Per 
fess argent and purpure masoned argent, in chief a raven close sable.
and with Thorolf Oddson Villannen (August of 1973): Per pale argent and 
ermine, in dexter base a raven close proper.
Again, only one CD/DC for the field.  There is nothing for position 
since fieldless has no location.  A proper raven is mostly (if not all) 
sable.

Alicia

Morel Carr Zupanic wrote:

>I cannot believe that this is free of conflict, so I am asking for a second 
>look, please.
>
>(fieldless) A crow close sable.
>
>There are two pieces of armoury that gave me pause, but according to 
>precedent are clear of conflict with my client's proposed badge.
>
>Sancha de Flores   (August of 2003 via the East):
>    (Fieldless) A cock sable, headed and queued gules.
>
>Dietrich Kempenich von Eltz   (August of 2011 via Ansteorra):
>    Argent, a brown hen proper.
>
>>From The Tenure of Fran?ois la Flamme (August 2001 - April 2004):
>"Birds in different categories are given substantial difference from each 
>other as long as they meet the general requirements for substantial 
>difference listed above." Poultry-shaped birds and regular shaped birds are 
>in two different categories, according to this same precedent.
>
>Doireann 
>
>_______________________________________________
>antir-heralds mailing list
>antir-heralds at antir.sca.org
>http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds
>
>  
>




From jdharcus at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 07:16:16 2012
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:16:16 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] cc please - Per fess wavy
	argent and sable....
In-Reply-To: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
References: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4FD8A0B0.3050706@telus.net>

A "dragon galley" has never been registered with that name.  Is it the 
same as a drakkar?

Alicia

Morel Carr Zupanic wrote:

>Can I please get a second look at this device.  I didn't find any conflicts.
>
>Per fess wavy argent and sable, a wolf passant regardant and a dragon galley 
>affronty counterchanged.
>
>Doireann Silver Yale 
>
>_______________________________________________
>antir-heralds mailing list
>antir-heralds at antir.sca.org
>http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds
>
>  
>




From jdharcus at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 07:28:51 2012
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:28:51 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] cc please: Per saltire
	arrondi argent and sable
In-Reply-To: <B366830CC150416FBE5610AC5769E91E@OwnerPC>
References: <B366830CC150416FBE5610AC5769E91E@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4FD8A3A3.5090209@telus.net>

I believe this conflicts with Godric of Twynham (July of 2010 via 
Lochac): Per saltire arrondi argent and gules.

"SENA - A.5.F.2. Substantial Change of Tincture: If the field of a new 
field-primary submission has no tinctures in common with the field of a 
protected piece of armory, they do not conflict. If a new submission 
with a field divided into two sections, three sections, quarterly, or 
per saltire has changed the tincture of each section of that field and 
each has at least one tincture on the field that the other does not, the 
two are substantially different and do not conflict."

However, it appears he granted blanket permission to conflict with 
device with one CD, which this has, so should be registerable.

Alicia


Morel Carr Zupanic wrote:

>I didn't find a conflict with this device, but would again appreciate 
>another look, please.
>
>Per saltire arrondi argent and sable.
>
>Thank you,
>Doireann 
>
>_______________________________________________
>antir-heralds mailing list
>antir-heralds at antir.sca.org
>http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds
>
>  
>

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From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 12:30:05 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:30:05 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] cc please (fieldless) A crow
	close sable
In-Reply-To: <4FD89F8B.9070504@telus.net>
References: <3076EA2F1B664E90804AF438D9520C99@OwnerPC>
	<4FD89F8B.9070504@telus.net>
Message-ID: <BD33101D474D4C74AACE0A439817AEDB@OwnerPC>

Alicia wrote:
However, I believe this is a conflict: Serlo of Litchfield (December of 
1985 via Atenveldt): Gyronny gules and Or, a vulture close sable.
There is only one CD/DC for the field.

It also conflicts with: Dafydd Wallraven (June of 1998 via Lochac): 
***************************

I knew it was too good to be true...  Thanks so much, Alicia!

Doireann



From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 12:36:42 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:36:42 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] cc please - Per fess wavy
	argent and sable....
In-Reply-To: <4FD8A0B0.3050706@telus.net>
References: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
	<4FD8A0B0.3050706@telus.net>
Message-ID: <A42CC80D284E451F817492DA7B13AB9F@OwnerPC>

Alicia wrote:
A "dragon galley" has never been registered with that name.  Is it the
same as a drakkar?
******************************

It looks very similar to me, enough so that I believe it could be a drakkar. 
The client is amenable to adjusting the blazon, and I don't believe she has 
to do a redraw for submission.

Dori 




From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 12:38:58 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:38:58 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] cc please: Per saltire
	arrondi argent and sable
In-Reply-To: <4FD8A3A3.5090209@telus.net>
References: <B366830CC150416FBE5610AC5769E91E@OwnerPC>
	<4FD8A3A3.5090209@telus.net>
Message-ID: <D5DD7DF31F204CBAA7DBD3F164B7B4FE@OwnerPC>

Alicia wrote:
I believe this conflicts with Godric of Twynham (July of 2010 via Lochac): Per saltire arrondi argent and gules.
<snip>
However, it appears he granted blanket permission to conflict with device with one CD, which this has, so should be registerable.
***********************************
Again, thank you very much.  I missed that one.  I seem to be a bit rusty with my conflict-checking!  I will be sure to have the submitter include a note regarding the blanket permission to conflict.
Dori




  

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From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 12:41:15 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:41:15 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please (fieldless) A crow close sable
In-Reply-To: <1366036637.12527954.1339595118876.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>
References: <1366036637.12527954.1339595118876.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>
Message-ID: <7CC83B1ED9A3488583917DD335D7C821@OwnerPC>

Hawise wrote:
I'd call that supreme luck on the part of the submitter! I looked for raven 
and corbie, in case you hadn't, and couldn't find anything. I'm not up on 
the oanda enough to rule out other non-poultry birds.
************************

Too good of luck, it turns out!  Alicia Red Flame found two conflicts, 
unfortunately...  Back to the drawing board!

Dori 




From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 12:50:59 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:50:59 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Plausibility of surname Orkneyskaia
In-Reply-To: <1189908329.12528641.1339595184399.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>
References: <1189908329.12528641.1339595184399.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>
Message-ID: <63B7EB56E58E4D618124DD3C813B33AF@OwnerPC>

Hawise wrote:
First (for Dori), what is her chosen time period?

Second (for anyone), if her time period involved a different spelling of 
Orkney, would that spelling have to be incorporated into the name, or would 
the modern spelling be [SCA] permissible?
***********************

She didn't give me a specific century, but her backstory is consistent with 
the 8th to 10th century.  According to that not-so-awesome source, 
wikipedia, the name Orkney comes from well before that.  I found a website 
that doesn't give dates, though does mention eras, and it states that during 
the Norse settlement (on another page, at the same site, it does say 8th to 
10th c.), the Island grouping was called  Orkneyjar 
http://www.orkneyjar.com/placenames/orkney.htm

This could get tricky.

Dori 




From bogfairy at shaw.ca  Wed Jun 13 13:05:54 2012
From: bogfairy at shaw.ca (Joan Kew)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:05:54 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Plausibility of surname Orkneyskaia
In-Reply-To: <63B7EB56E58E4D618124DD3C813B33AF@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <1065805426.12898447.1339617954111.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>

Hi Dori,

Have you seen this precedent? #2:

http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=175&loi=454

Hawise

----- Original Message -----
From: "Morel Carr Zupanic" <bear_necessities at telus.net>
Cc: "AnTir Heralds" <antir-heralds at antir.sca.org>, collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:50:59 PM
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] Plausibility of surname Orkneyskaia

Hawise wrote:
First (for Dori), what is her chosen time period?

Second (for anyone), if her time period involved a different spelling of 
Orkney, would that spelling have to be incorporated into the name, or would 
the modern spelling be [SCA] permissible?
***********************

She didn't give me a specific century, but her backstory is consistent with 
the 8th to 10th century.  According to that not-so-awesome source, 
wikipedia, the name Orkney comes from well before that.  I found a website 
that doesn't give dates, though does mention eras, and it states that during 
the Norse settlement (on another page, at the same site, it does say 8th to 
10th c.), the Island grouping was called  Orkneyjar 
http://www.orkneyjar.com/placenames/orkney.htm

This could get tricky.

Dori 


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From bear_necessities at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 13:19:23 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:19:23 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Plausibility of surname Orkneyskaia
In-Reply-To: <1065805426.12898447.1339617954111.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>
References: <1065805426.12898447.1339617954111.JavaMail.root@cds016.dcs.int.inet>
Message-ID: <31E5B0A453DA47A58B5800D751397DBA@OwnerPC>

Hawise wrote:
Have you seen this precedent? #2:

http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=175&loi=454
**********************

Thank you, this might well work!  Her given name was found in the Russian 
name articles, but is stated as a Norse name, so I will also look for it in 
Norse naming articles.

This is actually very awesome, thank you.

Dori 




From jdharcus at telus.net  Wed Jun 13 17:41:37 2012
From: jdharcus at telus.net (Judy Harcus)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:41:37 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] cc please - Per fess wavy
	argent and sable....
In-Reply-To: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
References: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4FD93341.2030400@telus.net>

I found no conflict.
Alicia

Morel Carr Zupanic wrote:

>Can I please get a second look at this device.  I didn't find any conflicts.
>
>Per fess wavy argent and sable, a wolf passant regardant and a dragon galley 
>affronty counterchanged.
>
>Doireann Silver Yale 
>
>_______________________________________________
>antir-heralds mailing list
>antir-heralds at antir.sca.org
>http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/antir-heralds
>
>  
>




From BasilD at lavabit.com  Wed Jun 13 23:43:33 2012
From: BasilD at lavabit.com (Basil)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 23:43:33 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please - Per fess wavy argent and sable....
In-Reply-To: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
References: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4FD98815.6010800@lavabit.com>

Morel Carr Zupanic wrote:
> Can I please get a second look at this device.  I didn't find any
> conflicts.
>
> Per fess wavy argent and sable, a wolf passant regardant and a dragon
> galley affronty counterchanged.

A ship drawn "bow on" to the viewer will be *very* hard to draw so as 
to be identifiable. Good luck with that.


~~Basil Dragonstrike

Disobedience Is Mandatory!




From BasilD at lavabit.com  Wed Jun 13 23:48:43 2012
From: BasilD at lavabit.com (Basil)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 23:48:43 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Plausibility of surname Orkneyskaia
In-Reply-To: <DCF8F72FCBBE4695BA2EF6006DCFF677@OwnerPC>
References: <DCF8F72FCBBE4695BA2EF6006DCFF677@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4FD9894B.6010008@lavabit.com>

Morel Carr Zupanic wrote:
> http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/toprus.html
> "Type IV locative bynames are created by taking the toponym and adding
> an adjectival suffix (usually "-skii"/"-skoi"/"-skyi," or feminine
> "-skaia"). Often, the form is found in the genitive case ("-skogo").
> Regardless of how it appears, the meaning is the same: "the person of
> <place name>" or "the <place name>-ish person." The person is described
> as being colored by his/her place of birth, bearing the place (so to
> speak) in their soul."

"Orkneyskaia" combines two languages into one name phrase (indeed, 
into one word) as is therefore not registrable (as I understand it).

> The client in question is the daughter of a Varangian (Norse) man and a
> Russian woman from Kiev, an historically plausible persona, given the
> rule of the Norse over Rus in her chosen period. She feels that it is
> plausible to have been born in Orkney, as this was also the period of
> time that the Norse populated that region.

Please remember, we do not register personae stories. That is, no 
matter how tricky &/or well written as excuse may be, the CoA will 
only register *likely*, *common* language mixes. ;-)


~~Basil Dragonstrike

Peritia zmaragdus est; sapientia adam?s est. Compar?vistine impensae 
e?rum n?per?

Disobedience Is Mandatory!




From bear_necessities at telus.net  Thu Jun 14 00:35:57 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 00:35:57 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] Plausibility of surname Orkneyskaia
In-Reply-To: <4FD9894B.6010008@lavabit.com>
References: <DCF8F72FCBBE4695BA2EF6006DCFF677@OwnerPC>
	<4FD9894B.6010008@lavabit.com>
Message-ID: <72BF9A32122B41BC9DAC3134AF00B558@OwnerPC>

Basil wrote:
Please remember, we do not register personae stories. That is, no
matter how tricky &/or well written as excuse may be, the CoA will
only register *likely*, *common* language mixes. ;-)
**********************


I understand that. And the Varangians in Russia were well documented during 
that time period, which was a few centuries long, so to me, this is more 
than a persona story, but a plausible explanation as to why this might have 
worked (like the Black Irish).  There was even a Russian princess during 
that time, with a Norse name (Rogned).  My client happens to like that name, 
so now we are going in a different direction, and going with Rogned 
Orkneyski, if I can find other documentation of Rogned as a feminine Norse 
name.  I haven't looked far yet, so there's still hope!

Thanks, Basil.

Dori 




From bear_necessities at telus.net  Thu Jun 14 00:56:25 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 00:56:25 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] cc please - Per fess wavy
	argent and sable....
In-Reply-To: <4FD93341.2030400@telus.net>
References: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
	<4FD93341.2030400@telus.net>
Message-ID: <90F4681399204A01B3C7CB8203C3EF9C@OwnerPC>


I found no conflict.
Alicia
*******************

Wonderful, thank you!

Dori



From bear_necessities at telus.net  Thu Jun 14 01:02:43 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 01:02:43 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please - Per fess wavy argent and sable....
In-Reply-To: <4FD98815.6010800@lavabit.com>
References: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
	<4FD98815.6010800@lavabit.com>
Message-ID: <042E6F2DCA254E24BC6F0C78CC882D13@OwnerPC>

Basil wrote:
A ship drawn "bow on" to the viewer will be *very* hard to draw so as
to be identifiable. Good luck with that.
***********************

It looks great!  The bow is like the one in this image - 
https://oscar.sca.org/emblazons/Lochac/2012-05/ragnarr_shield_bw.JPG - 
though her sail is smaller, and has no artwork on it.  All argent on a sable 
field makes it nice and clean-looking too.

Dori 




From BasilD at lavabit.com  Thu Jun 14 21:43:20 2012
From: BasilD at lavabit.com (Basil)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:43:20 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please - Per fess wavy argent and sable....
In-Reply-To: <042E6F2DCA254E24BC6F0C78CC882D13@OwnerPC>
References: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC>
	<4FD98815.6010800@lavabit.com>
	<042E6F2DCA254E24BC6F0C78CC882D13@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <4FDABD68.9050603@lavabit.com>

Morel Carr Zupanic wrote:
> Basil wrote:
>> A ship drawn "bow on" to the viewer will be *very* hard to draw so as
>> to be identifiable. Good luck with that.
> ***********************
>
> It looks great! The bow is like the one in this image -
> https://oscar.sca.org/emblazons/Lochac/2012-05/ragnarr_shield_bw.JPG -
> though her sail is smaller, and has no artwork on it. All argent on a
> sable field makes it nice and clean-looking too.
>
> Dori

I hate to be pestiferous, but IMO that isn't readily identifiable w/o 
the blazon.


~~Basil Dragonstrike

Peritia zmaragdus est; sapientia adam?s est. Compar?vistine impensae 
e?rum n?per?

Disobedience Is Mandatory!




From bear_necessities at telus.net  Thu Jun 14 22:00:23 2012
From: bear_necessities at telus.net (Morel Carr Zupanic)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:00:23 -0700
Subject: [tirrigh-heralds] cc please - Per fess wavy argent and sable....
In-Reply-To: <4FDABD68.9050603@lavabit.com>
References: <90815AC14AE649D796FECBD85E4E8571@OwnerPC><4FD98815.6010800@lavabit.com><042E6F2DCA254E24BC6F0C78CC882D13@OwnerPC>
	<4FDABD68.9050603@lavabit.com>
Message-ID: <714EAA2B4FB441DCA67B002158A32B82@OwnerPC>

Basil wrote:
I hate to be pestiferous, but IMO that isn't readily identifiable w/o
the blazon.
*********************

I do hope that the College (and you!) will think differently when you see 
her rendering.  I think it's worth a try, and if it doesn't work, I'll 
advise her to do a default drakkar, and resubmit.

Thank you, Basil, I appreciate your input, and will let her know that a 
return on the basis of identifiability is possible.

Dori