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My original attempt to post this got bounced by the list as being too
big, so I'm reposting it with separate messages for name, device and
badge.<br>
<br>
PART 2 - Device<br>
<br>
Wulfstan Hrafnsson wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="midAANLkTilI50OKGmMaJcYOoVdnm7JX0jtUm5O7fF7SqiL8@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><b><br>
Device: Per chevron azure and argent, two wolf's heads erased to
sinister argent and a Celtic harp vert.</b><br>
</blockquote>
Pull out your Rules for Submission
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html">http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html</a>.<br>
First thing is to check for Style issues (parts VIII and IX). This
looks okay.<br>
<blockquote
cite="midAANLkTilI50OKGmMaJcYOoVdnm7JX0jtUm5O7fF7SqiL8@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><br>
Potential conflicts:<br>
<ul>
<li><a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Bleyddyn%20ap%20Rhys"
target="_blank">Bleyddyn ap Rhys</a>
<ul>
<li>The following device associated with this name was
registered <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1992&m1=March&y2=1992&m2=March&kC=checked"
target="_blank">in March of 1992 (via Caid)</a>:<br>
<b><a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+chevron"
target="_blank">Per chevron</a> <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure" target="_blank">azure</a>
and <a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent"
target="_blank">argent</a>, two wolf's heads <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased" target="_blank">erased</a>
<a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent"
target="_blank">argent</a> and a <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=drakkar" target="_blank">drakkar</a>
<a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=sable"
target="_blank">sable</a>.</b></li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
As far as I can tell, I'd have only 1 CD from this. Unless I get
points for both the form and the colour of the secondary charge? Does
the facing of the wolf's heads make any difference? Suggestions? I'd
be really good with adding a chief or a bordure or something
ridiculously easy like that. Alternately I guess I could try to track
the guy down and ask for permission to conflict....<br>
</blockquote>
For this we go to Part X of the Rules for Submission (hereafter
referred to as RfS)<br>
Both devices have primary charges so we can skip X.1.<br>
Both devices have similar primary charges (the wolf's heads) so X.2
doesn't apply, so skip it.<br>
X.3 only applies to branch devices, etc. so skip it.<br>
Now we're down to X.4. We need two CDs from here to clear this.<br>
X.4.a - Field difference - same field, nothing here.<br>
X.4.b - Addition/deletion of charges of the field - both have two on
the top and one on the bottom, nothing here.<br>
X.4.c - Addition/deletion of charges overall - doesn't apply to either.<br>
X.4.d - Tincture changes - okay, let's check this out: "Changing the
tinctures or division of any group of charges placed directly on the
field, including strewn charges or charges overall is one clear
difference."<br>
- Questions: 1) Are the heads and the harp one charge group or two?
2) Your comment indicates you believe the harp and drakkar are
secondary charges - why?<br>
- Check the Glossary of Terms: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html">http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html</a>.
<br>
"<b>Charge Group.<br>
</b>A set of charges used together in a design as a single unit. The
charges in groups in heraldry usually fall into standard arrangements
depending on their number and what other items are involved in the
design. A collection of charges that are arranged in such a standard
arrangement are considered a single group, even if they are of
different types and/or tinctures. For example, <i>Per fess argent and
gules, two towers sable and a roundel argent</i> contains a single
group of primary charges in the standard charge arrangement of two and
one. <em>See also</em> Peripheral Charge Group, Primary Charge Group,
Secondary Charge Group, Slot Machine Heraldry, and Tertiary Charge
Group."<b><br>
"Primary Charge Group.<br>
</b>The most important group of charges in a piece of armory. In
blazons, the primary charge group is usually mentioned immediately
after the field (though a strewn charge group is not primary when it
is blazoned before a central charge group). If there is a central
ordinary lying entirely on the field, it is the primary charge. If
there is no such central ordinary, then the primary charge group is
the set of charges of the same size that lie in the center of the
design and directly on the field. An overall charge can never be the
primary charge. In any piece of armory with charges there will always
be a primary charge group, unless the only charges are peripheral.
There cannot be more than one primary charge group in any given
design. In <i>Gules, a pale between two mullets argent</i>, the pale
is the primary charge. In <i>Or, a maunche between three roundels
azure</i> the maunche is the primary charge. In <i>Per chevron argent
and sable, two roses and a fleur-de-lys counterchanged and on a chief
purpure three hearts argent</i>, the roses and fleur-de-lys are the
primary charge group, because they are all of about the same size and
in a standard arrangement. In <i>Azure semy of mullets and a chief
argent</i> the strewn mullets are the primary charge group; in
<i>Azure semy of mullets, an eagle and a chief argent</i> the eagle is
the primary charge. In <i>Sable, a lion Or, overall a bend argent,
</i>the lion is the primary charge. In <i>Azure, a chief Or</i> there
is no primary charge group. <em>See also</em> Overall Charge Group,
Peripheral Charge Group, Secondary Charge Group, Semy, Tertiary Charge
Group."<br>
<b>"Secondary Charge Group.</b><br>
A group of charges on the field around the primary charge group. A
design may have more than one secondary charge group. Each group may
confer difference independently. In <i>Gules, a pale between two
mullets argent</i>, the mullets are the secondary charge group. The
secondary charges in <i>Or, a maunche between three roundels azure
</i>are the roundels. In <i>Sable, a chevron cotised argent between
three millrinds Or</i> there are two secondary charge groups, the
cotises and the millrinds. In <i>Per chevron argent and sable, two
roses and a fleur-de-lys counterchanged and on a chief purpure thee
hearts argent</i>, the chief is the secondary charge group. A
peripheral charge group is a type of secondary charge group.<i> See
also</i> Charge Group, Peripheral Charge Group, Primary Charge Group,
Semy, Tertiary Charge Group."<br>
<br>
The example under Primary Charge Group gives us that information: "<i>Per
chevron argent
and sable, two roses and a fleur-de-lys counterchanged and on a chief
purpure three hearts argent</i>, the roses and fleur-de-lys are the
primary charge group, because they are all of about the same size and
in a standard arrangement.". So your device has one primary charge
group consisting of three charges - two heads and a harp. <br>
<br>
However, there is one other thing to check out - does the harp, being
in the lower part of the field, count as one third or one half of the
group when calculating difference in tincture? <br>
Let's check the precedents:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents.html">http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/precedents.html</a><br>
Starting at the most recent (reign of Elizabeth de Rossignol), I found
(under the heading CHARGE GROUP):<br>
"[Per bend sable and argent, two fox's heads erased argent and
another sable.] This is returned for conflict with Batu Chinua,
<i>Per chevron sable and argent, two wolf's heads erased and a rose
counterchanged</i>. There is a CD for changes to the field. There
is no difference between a wolf's head and a fox's head. Nor is
there a CD for changing one of the charges (the rose) to a fox's
head. As the charges are not arranged two and one, the precedent
allowing a CD for changing the base-most charge does not apply. Nor
does the precedent granting a CD for two changes to the charges on
one side of a line of division apply - as explained under the
heading Group Theory in the November 1995 Cover Letter - as only
the type has changed (from an argent rose to an argent fox's head).
[<b>Renard le Fox de Berwyk</b>, <a
href="http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2005/10/05-10lar.html">10/05</a>,
R-An Tir]" <br>
This doesn't state exactly what we're looking for but suggests looking
at the November 1995 Cover Letter would be a good idea. <br>
The Cover Letters are part of the Laurel Letters:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/">http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/</a>.
Selecting November 1995, I selected the
cover letter. Hmm, that's odd - I don't see anything here.<br>
<br>
Oh well, back to looking at the precedents.<br>
Under the precedents of Francois la Flamme 2nd tenure, I found a
similar precedent but again not explicit so looked further.<br>
Nothing under Shauna's tenure.<br>
<br>
Aha! Under the precedents of Francois' first tenure I found:<br>
"There is a second CD for changing the tincture of the charge in base,
as the basemost of a group of charges two and one is considered to be
half the group:
<blockquote>After much thought and discussion, it has been decided,
for purposes of X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the
bottommost of three charges, either on the field alone or around an
ordinary, is defined as one-half of the group...multiple changes to the
basemost of three charges under this definition will be granted a
maximum of one CVD. (CL 9/6/90 p.2)</blockquote>
[<b>Letia Thistelthueyt</b>, <a
href="http://sca.org/heraldry/loar/2001/12/01-12lar.html">12/01</a>,
A-Atlantia]"<br>
<br>
This time I did locate the original cover letter
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1990/08/1990-08cl.html">http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1990/08/1990-08cl.html</a>
which states in
full:<br>
"After much thought and discussion, it has been decided, for purposes
of
X.4.d, e and h of the Rules for Submission, that the bottommost of
three charges, either on the field alone or around an ordinary, is
defined as one-half of the group. While I do not regard this definition
as necessarily the ideal fix, it will solve most of the problems which
have led to the return of a number of pieces of armory recently which
most commenters seem to agree <em>ought</em> to be sufficiently clear.
I am not certain in my own mind but that the total amount of difference
which can be obtained for changes to one of three charges should be
limited to one CVD - that is to say, changing the type and tincture of
the bottommost of three charges, either alone on the field or around an
ordinary, would <em>not</em> be worth two CVDs. I would appreciate
your commentary on this. For now, however, multiple changes to the
basemost of three charges under this definition will be granted a
maximum of one CVD."<br>
<br>
I have the feeling there may be another precedent around this that I'm
not locating right now.<br>
<br>
However, this does tell us that there is a CD for changing the tincture
and type of the bottom charge, though possibly only one.<br>
So let's continue with the RfS.<br>
<br>
X.d.e - Type changes - nothing here in regards to the top charges<br>
X.d.f - Number changes - nothing here<br>
X.d.g - Arrangement changes - two and one vs two and one - nothing here<br>
X.d.h - Posture changes - aha! "Significantly changing the posture or
individual orientation of charges in any group placed directly on the
field, including strewn charges or charges overall is one clear
difference". Orientation includes the change from facing to dexter or
facing to sinister (the latter also called contourny). <br>
So there is your second CD - for the orientation of the heads.<br>
Your device is clear of Bleyddyn's.<br>
<blockquote
cite="midAANLkTilI50OKGmMaJcYOoVdnm7JX0jtUm5O7fF7SqiL8@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">With a chief I'd need to be sure to avoid conflicting with:<br>
<br>
<ul>
<li><a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Seamus%20MacOwen%20of%20Kirkhill"
target="_blank">Seamus MacOwen of Kirkhill</a>
<ul>
<li>The following device associated with this name was
registered <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1984&m1=January&y2=1984&m2=January&kM=checked"
target="_blank">in January of 1984 (via the Middle)</a>:<br>
<b><a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+chevron"
target="_blank">Per chevron</a> <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=sable" target="_blank">sable</a>
and <a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=Or" target="_blank">Or</a>,
two wolf's heads <a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased"
target="_blank">erased</a> <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=addorsed" target="_blank">addorsed</a>
<a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent"
target="_blank">argent</a> and a <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=mullet" target="_blank">mullet</a>
<a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure"
target="_blank">azure</a>, and <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=on" target="_blank">on</a> a
<a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=chief"
target="_blank">chief</a> <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=Or" target="_blank">Or</a>
three lozenges <a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure"
target="_blank">azure</a>.</b></li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
But it looks clear to me (1 CD for field colours, 1 CD for mullet vs
harp, 1 CD for lozenges on the chief). Yes?<br>
</blockquote>
Yes. X.4.a gives you the field difference, X.4.d/e (as above) for
changing the bottom charge, and X.4.j adding charges to charges. There
might also be one for the tincture of the chief, depending on whether
yours is argent or Or.<br>
<blockquote
cite="midAANLkTilI50OKGmMaJcYOoVdnm7JX0jtUm5O7fF7SqiL8@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><br>
I'm also okay making the field division nebuly or wavy or some such, or
going per saltire and adding a harp, having the harps in pale and the
wolf's heads in fess, which I think is still 2 CD from:<br>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Anne%20Kent"
target="_blank">Anne Kent</a>
<ul>
<li>The following device associated with this name was
registered <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1985&m1=March&y2=1985&m2=March&kM=checked"
target="_blank">in March of 1985 (via the Middle)</a>:<br>
<b><a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+saltire"
target="_blank">Per saltire</a> <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=azure" target="_blank">azure</a>
and <a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent"
target="_blank">argent</a>, <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=in+pale" target="_blank">in
pale</a> two foxes' masks and <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=in+fess" target="_blank">in
fess</a> two <a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=rose"
target="_blank">roses</a> <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=counterchanged"
target="_blank">counterchanged</a>.</b></li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
(1 CD for placement of canine crania, 1 CD for harps instead of
roses... oh and 1 CD for reversing the field division colours I
suppose... I guess that blazon would be: "Per saltire argent and azure,
in pale two harps vert and in fess two wolf's heads to sinister"?)<br>
<br>
Actually the per saltire arrangement is more or less my second choice,
and if clear where the per chevron is not, probably what I'll go with.<br>
</blockquote>
Add the tincture for the wolf's heads and the blazon looks okay to me.<br>
Going back the RfS X.4.a (field difference), it states: "There is a
clear difference for reversing the tinctures of a field evently divided
into two parts, per saltire, or quarterly, but not for reversing the
tinctures of a field divided any other way; Per pale nebuly ermine and
gules has one clear difference from Per pale nebuly gules and
ermine...".<br>
So yes, there is a CD for change to the field. There is a CD by X.4.d
for changing the tincture of half the primary charge group (azure to
vert), there is a CD by X.4.e for changing half the type of the primary
charge group (roses to harps), and another CD by X.4.h for changing the
position of the heads (a mask is a head looking forward). <br>
So no conflict here.<br>
<blockquote
cite="midAANLkTilI50OKGmMaJcYOoVdnm7JX0jtUm5O7fF7SqiL8@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><br>
I *think* I've also got 2+ CD's with:<br>
<br>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Oriel%20y%20Cwn"
target="_blank">Oriel y Cwn</a>
<ul>
<li>The following device associated with this name was
registered <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1995&m1=December&y2=1995&m2=December&kT=checked"
target="_blank">in December of 1995 (via Trimaris)</a>:<br>
<b><a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=per+chevron"
target="_blank">Per chevron</a> <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=purpure" target="_blank">purpure</a>
and <a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=vert" target="_blank">vert</a>,
a <a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=chevron" target="_blank">chevron</a>
between two dog's heads <a
href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=erased" target="_blank">erased</a>
and an oak leaf <a href="http://oanda.sca.org/glossary.cgi?p=argent"
target="_blank">argent</a>.</b></li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
(1 CD for field colours, 1 CD for that chevron, 1 CD for the oak leaf)<br>
</blockquote>
No conflict by X.1. "Addition of primary charges - Armory does not
conflict with any protected armory that adds or removes the primary
charge group... For example, Argent, two mullets gules does not
conflict with Argent, a pale between two mullets gules..." The primary
charge in Oriel's device is the chevron. You don't need to go any
further than that.<br>
<br>
Overall, harps look pretty clear, and if I never have to conflict check
something with dogs in it again, I'll be okay with that. I think I
looked at about 500 devices and badges on that charge type alone.<br>
<br>
I don't have time to do a full double check at the moment to see if
you've missed anything.<br>
<br>
Alicia<br>
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