[tirrigh-heralds] Ordinary confusion

[Teceangl]

> I've run into the unknown records before but usually it works the next time
> I check.  Try again and see if you still have the problem.  It's not showing
> up for me.

Seeing those messages is frequently a good sign.  It means the
database is being updated.  Give it a couple of hours and go back in
for another try.  Unfortunately, neither of the alternate O&A sites
seems recommendable.  heraldsnet.org is buggy and wgz.org is seriously
out of date.  Stick with oanda.sca.org

> Compass stars, compass roses, mullets and suns all have the potential of
> conflicting with each other.
> A compass star doesn't conflict with a mullet of the default 5 points but
> will with all others.
> Compass stars also conflict with suns, so you need to check there as well.

Under the right circumstances, an elephant 'conflicts with' a mullet.
:)  Degrees of difference are the better way to think.  A compass star
can easily conflict with a mullet of five points if the only CD
between the armories is type of the mullet, because they get
significant difference (CD-level) but not substantial (complete type
difference to be clear by X.2.).  So Alicia was about right in that
you must look under suns and mullets and compass roses, as those are
the potential conflicting charges.  You can't automatically skip
anything in those categories but you can keep guaranteed differences
in mind while checking.

Another category to remember: estoiles.  Significant but not
substantial difference.  The same goes for demi-suns and any mullet or
sun, you get one CD under X.4.e.

> If the compass star is on a field, you need to check against compass roses
> on the same field (you get one CD between a compass star and a compass rose
> but need a second; fieldless or change of field will give you the second
> one).

Degree of difference here is significant, for the addition of the
annulet.  Since that's a definite CD and changing the field is a
definite CD, as Alicia says you need only check matching fields when
looking at compass roses.

> Relevant precedents:

Add one of my favorites:

There is another CD for changing the type of mullet from a mullet of
eight points to a mullet of five points. The rules for change of type
of mullets follow the rules for change of number of charges. Mullets
of n points will get a CD from mullets of m points if RfS X.4.f gives
a CD for changing the number of charges from n to m. [Kouac Myklos,
02/2002, A-Ansteorra]

Always count the minor points, unless comparing a compass star to a
mullet of four points.

[a mullet of four points elongated to base vs. a compass star] There
is no difference between a mullet of four points and a compass star
per the LoAR of January 2001: "As neither a compass star nor a mullet
of four points are period charges, and they differ only by the
addition of the lesser points, there is not a CD between a mullet of
four points and a compass star." There is also no difference for the
slight artistic variant in elongating the bottom point of a mullet.
[Catherine Diana de Chambéry, 05/2003, R-Atenveldt]

And one affirming difference from standard estoiles:

[Counter-ermine, three estoiles Or] This does not conflict with the
Counts of Celje (important non-SCA arms), Azure, three mullets of six
points Or. There is one CD for changing the field. The SCA has
consistently held, since the Cover Letter for the June 1991 LoAR, that
mullets should be given a CD from estoiles (in the estoile's standard
depiction, with six wavy rays). [Giovanni Basilio de Castronovo,
10/2002, A-Lochac]

> Azure, three compass stars and a chief triangular Or.

Easy check.  Remember what IS a difference and you can streamline
things considerably.  Changing the field from anything that isn't
plain azure is a CD.  Changing from any other number than three in the
group is a CD. Changing the tincture or division of the primary charge
group is a CD. Having added a secondary charge group is a CD. Changing
the type of the secondary charge is a CD. Changing the tincture or
division of the secondary charge is a CD. Changing the number of
secondary charges is a CD (yes, you get a CD for number between one
chief and any other number of anything else - semy of annulets versus
a chief triangular is a CD for type AND a CD for number). Changing
arrangement can be a CD, so three in fess is a CD from two and one.
And don't forget X.1. and X.2.
Say you found 'Azure, a chevron between three compass stars, a chief
triangular Or.'  The proposal is not in conflict with it because of
X.1.  The chevron is the primary charge and has been removed.
Say you found 'Azure, three annulets and a chief triangular Or'. Two
types of charge on the field in both pieces of armory. Substantial
change of type of every primary. No conflict under X.2.

* Sun - Whole - Uncharged - 3 or more.  Look at everything on azure
and on all other fields watch for a chief triangular, since chiefs
triangular are significantly different from all other charges, even
other types of chiefs. Not on azure and no chief triangular = 2 CDs
and clear.
* Sun - Whole - Uncharged - 2. BEWARE!  In this category are designs
of three primary charges in which two are suns and the third something
else. If arranged two and one, you can get a CD for changing the type
of the something else if it's in base. But if arranged in any other
way, you can't. And sometimes you can't get an arrangement CD if the
arrangement is forced by other stuff in the design (like field
tincture matching the charge tincture). So look at all fields but on
anything but azure, keep an eye out for that useful chief triangular.
Not on azure and no chief triangular = 2 CDs and clear.
* Mullet - Uncharged - 1 - Or - Group primary. Because 'Azure, two
lions and a mullet of six points, a chief triangular Or' or somesuch
might exist. Look at azure fields, watch for that chief triangular.
* Mullet - Uncharged - 2 - Or. BEWARE!  In this category are designs
of three primary charges in which two are mullets and the third
something else. If arranged two and one, you can get a CD for changing
the type of the something else if it's in base. But if arranged in any
other way, you can't. And sometimes you can't get an arrangement CD if
the arrangement is forced by other stuff in the design (like field
tincture matching the charge tincture). So look at all fields but on
anything but azure, keep an eye out for that useful chief triangular.
Not on azure and no chief triangular = 2 CDs and clear.
* Mullet - Uncharged - 3 - Or.  Everything on azure, on other fields
watch for a chief triangular.
* Mullet - Uncharged - 4 or more - Multicolor. Look at azure fields,
just in case someone registered 'in pall a mullet argent between three
mullets Or' or some other silliness that negates a tincture CD. Again,
watch for that chief triangular.
* Mullet - Charged - Or. Look at azure fields, watch for the chief triangular.
* Chief - Uncharged - Complex line - Or.  Look at azure fields.  Why?
Both pieces of armory must qualify to apply X.2.  Some git might've
registered 'Azure, two lions and a sword, a chief triangular Or' which
would only be one CD away from your proposal under X.4.e.  The good
news is that you can eliminate needing to look under 1-CD away
categories like non-Or mullets and suns  and numbers other than three,
also compass roses and estoiles, by looking at complex line chiefs.
Just look carefully and don't rely on searching for text, read the
entries.

It gets faster with practice. (In the meantime it can be a very good
cure for insomnia!)  Remember X.1.!  "Azure, a fess..."  Stop.  It's
clear.  "Azure, on a chevron..."  Clear.  "Azure, a fish between..."
That'll be clear, too, since 'between' means the other charges are not
in the primary group.  'in fess between' or 'in pall between' mean all
in the same group, so word order matters.
But watch for stuff like, "Azure, two eagles and..."  Keep going, the
next words might be "a sun Or".

My results:
Celje, Counts of - December of 2000 (via the West): Azure, three
mullets of six points Or. (Important non-SCA arms)

Fionn Bàn - January of 1998 (via Atlantia): Azure, three mullets of
six points a bordure Or.

Phooey.  You get to figure out why these cause trouble to your client.
I expect you figured it out just reading the blazons.

> She would also like to submit as a badge:
>
> Azure, a compass star Or.
>
> But sadly, it's taken:
>
> Paul of Sunriver
>
> The following device associated with this name was registered in August of
> 1982 (via the West):
> Azure, a compass star Or.
>
> Alternately, we'd talked about a fieldless compass star Or, but as far as I
> can see that's still only 1 CD from the above.  Maybe doable with a
> 'permission to conflict' letter if we can track the gentle down?

Unfortunately, Paul of Sunriver appears to have passed and left no
heraldic will.

> I've also suggested (just tonight):
>
> (Fieldless), a compass star per pale azure and Or.
>
> I think that should get past the nearest similarity I found:
>
> Jaida bint Salim
>
> The following badge associated with this name was registered in January of
> 2002 (via the Middle):
> (Fieldless) A mullet per pale azure and vert
>
> (1 CD for fieldless, 1 CD for 50% or more tincture difference)

And one CD for change of type of mullet.
But there is a conflict, unfortunately:
Griffin de Stokeport - June of 2005 (via Ealdormere): (Fieldless) A
mullet of seven points per pale azure and Or.

Good move on suggesting different divisions.  I often suggest per
saltire when working with mullets of eight points and compass stars.
It's an under-used division on fieldless badges.  I checked and
believe (double-check my work, please) that a compass star per saltire
Or and azure AND a compass star per saltire azure and Or are both
clear if fieldless.

And I very much recommend fieldless.  No need to color in a background
on anything she puts it on unless she really wants to, and then she
picks whatever works for her.  My badge is 'a mascle argent'.  I only
color in a background on white or very pale things, then if I don't
default to sable I pick a color that compliments what I'm marking. I
have a ewer with green leaves on it, so I painted a vert lozenge for a
background and put the mascle on the lozenge.  You may also fimbriate,
even if not in the blazon.  On my drum head I simply fimbriated the
mascle sable.

- Teceangl
-- 
KWHSS website: http://kwhss.sca.org