[tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming

[Uilliam mac Ailéne mhic Seamuis]

Judy Harcus wrote:
> Britt wrote:
>> l'Etoile d'Argent, Argent Estoile, Silver Estoile, or any correct
>> French variant, are all clear from conflict.
>>
>> - Teceangl
>>
>>   
>  >From the July 2007 Laurel Letter (returns):
> *Tir Rígh, Principality of. * Order name L'ordre de l'Etoile Argente.
> 
>     This order name conflicts with the /Order of the Argent Estoille of
>     Trimaris/, registered to the kingdom of Trimaris in October, 1991.
>     Both names contain descriptive elements nearly identical in sound
>     and appearance and identical in meaning (Silver Star). RFS 2.b.i and
>     2.b.ii. say that two non-personal names with the same number of
>     descriptive elements conflict unless i) "each of them contains a
>     descriptive element significantly different from every descriptive
>     element in the other", or ii) "either the order of the elements or
>     the grammatical structure of the name has changed in a way that
>     significantly changes the meaning of the name as a whole." In this
>     case, the descriptive elements are identical, and the change in the
>     order of the elements does not significantly change the meaning of
>     the name as a whole. The kingdom name in the one order name is
>     transparent for purposes of conflict. We would drop the descriptive
>     element /Argente/, but the order name would then conflict with
>     /Estoile Pursuivant/, registered to the kingdom of the West in
>     January 1982 and /Order of the Estoile/, registered to the /Barony
>     of Winter's Gate/ in December 1984. We note that /l'Ordre de
>     l'Etoile Argente/ (note that this suggestion corrects the
>     capitalization from the submitted form) would be registerable if the
>     principality of Tir Rígh obtained a letter of permission to conflict
>     from the Kingdom of Trimaris.
> 
> So I question whether at least the first two are really clear.  (Also, 
> is "l'Etoile d'Argent" proper grammer?  My french is pretty rusty but 
> doesn't the translate as "the Star of White" with "of" being in the 
> sense of "from"? )
> 
> Alicia

Re: Grammar

Yes, this is correct construction. The "d'" construction does not always 
mean "from a location". The phrase "eau de vie" means "water of life", 
not "water from life". Also it's not "Star of White"; it's "Star of 
Silver". Heraldicly white does not exist; it's used to represent the 
metal, just as yellow represents the metal gold.

Your point about the conflict is well-taken. Perhaps it would be 
simplest to write Trimaris asking for permission to conflict? I mean, 
what are the odds someone's going to get both, or that both will wind up 
being in sufficiently close proximity as to confuse a herald?

Yours aye,
Uilliam TNNFATCDH
-- 
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who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
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