[tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming

[Quentin Martel]

Staying in conflict -

Pros:
1. We don't have to change our award name.

2. We're a long, long way from Trimaris. There are exactly 9 people living
in An Tir who hold Trimarian awards. Listed below for trivia buffs
Abigail MacLachlan the Mad - Wealdsmere
Dafydd ap Emrys - Blatha An Oir
Duncan Angus Macdonald - Aquaterra
Jhone MacLachlan - Wealdsmere
Katerina Isabella di Firenze - Dragon's Mist
Lorcan ab Arthur - Dragon's Mist
Mary Shandril Fergueson Germain - Blatha An Oir
Shalimariah Galistene - Dragon's Laire
Thamzine of the North Sea - Blatha An Oir

3. It's pretty easy to ask

Cons:
1. We won't have our own unique award name

2. The idea of registering is that we have unique names

3. We're not really committed to the current name at this point. Tir Righ
would accept a change especially in light of direct conflict.



Am I missing any pros or cons? Please let me know. That's largely what this
list is all about - getting the real information in front of us so decisions
can be made quickly and properly.

- Quentin Silver Yale



-----Original Message-----
From: collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org
[mailto:collegeofheralds-bounces at tirrigh.org] On Behalf Of Uilliam mac
Ailéne mhic Seamuis
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 8:34 PM
To: collegeofheralds at tirrigh.org
Subject: Re: [tirrigh-heralds] L'Etoile d'Argent renaming

Judy Harcus wrote:
> Britt wrote:
>> l'Etoile d'Argent, Argent Estoile, Silver Estoile, or any correct
>> French variant, are all clear from conflict.
>>
>> - Teceangl
>>
>>   
>  >From the July 2007 Laurel Letter (returns):
> *Tir Rígh, Principality of. * Order name L'ordre de l'Etoile Argente.
> 
>     This order name conflicts with the /Order of the Argent Estoille of
>     Trimaris/, registered to the kingdom of Trimaris in October, 1991.
>     Both names contain descriptive elements nearly identical in sound
>     and appearance and identical in meaning (Silver Star). RFS 2.b.i and
>     2.b.ii. say that two non-personal names with the same number of
>     descriptive elements conflict unless i) "each of them contains a
>     descriptive element significantly different from every descriptive
>     element in the other", or ii) "either the order of the elements or
>     the grammatical structure of the name has changed in a way that
>     significantly changes the meaning of the name as a whole." In this
>     case, the descriptive elements are identical, and the change in the
>     order of the elements does not significantly change the meaning of
>     the name as a whole. The kingdom name in the one order name is
>     transparent for purposes of conflict. We would drop the descriptive
>     element /Argente/, but the order name would then conflict with
>     /Estoile Pursuivant/, registered to the kingdom of the West in
>     January 1982 and /Order of the Estoile/, registered to the /Barony
>     of Winter's Gate/ in December 1984. We note that /l'Ordre de
>     l'Etoile Argente/ (note that this suggestion corrects the
>     capitalization from the submitted form) would be registerable if the
>     principality of Tir Rígh obtained a letter of permission to conflict
>     from the Kingdom of Trimaris.
> 
> So I question whether at least the first two are really clear.  (Also, 
> is "l'Etoile d'Argent" proper grammer?  My french is pretty rusty but 
> doesn't the translate as "the Star of White" with "of" being in the 
> sense of "from"? )
> 
> Alicia

Re: Grammar

Yes, this is correct construction. The "d'" construction does not always 
mean "from a location". The phrase "eau de vie" means "water of life", 
not "water from life". Also it's not "Star of White"; it's "Star of 
Silver". Heraldicly white does not exist; it's used to represent the 
metal, just as yellow represents the metal gold.

Your point about the conflict is well-taken. Perhaps it would be 
simplest to write Trimaris asking for permission to conflict? I mean, 
what are the odds someone's going to get both, or that both will wind up 
being in sufficiently close proximity as to confuse a herald?

Yours aye,
Uilliam TNNFATCDH
-- 
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man 
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from 
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
Main homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/fog.locker/
  SCA homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/uilliam/
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