[tirrigh-heralds] [antir-heralds] CC: "Fieldless, a cross formy quadrate sable."- basically the Lionsdale cross

[Judy Harcus]

The May 2009 Cover Letter 
(http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/05/09-05cl.html) has a discussion of 
what cross conflict, however it doesn't cover everything and doesn't 
discuss what difference there is by making the cross quadrate.  The 
letter specifies that "Crosses formy/paty" conflict with each other.

Some digging into the LoARs found this in the Sept 2009 LoAR 
(http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2009/09/09-09lar.html)
"Janos Hideg.  Badge. Sable, a cross formy quadrate argent.

    Question was raised in commentary whether the quadrate treatment of 
a cross is worth difference. Batonvert found the arms of Jerusalem 
depicted as Argent, a cross potent quadrate between four crosses couped 
Or, in The Armorial de Gelre, c.1370, rather than the usual cross potent 
(i.e., not quadrate). A cross quadrate must, therefore, be considered an 
artistic variant of the underlying cross type, blazonable, but not 
significant for purposes of conflict.

    The badge, therefore, is returned for conflict with the badge of the 
Order of the Dannebrog (important non-SCA armory), (Fieldless) A cross 
formy argent fimbriated gules. There is a single CD for fieldlesness, 
but nothing for the fimbriation or the quadrate treatment of Janos' cross.

    The badge is also returned for conflict with the device of 
Christgaen von Köln, Sable crusilly formy argent. There is a CD for the 
change of number of primary charges, but nothing for the quadrate 
treatment of Janos' cross."

Therefore, I believe the proposed badge probably conflicts with Dorothea 
of Caer-Myrddin (registered in January of 1973):  Argent, a cross patty 
sable.  I *think* that's the only conflict though it would be good to 
have others check as well.

However, in spite of this being such an old registration, Googling her 
name came up with what may be a valid email address for Dorothea (which 
I will send to you privately rather than post to the list), so you may 
be able to get permission to conflict since both the field and the 
quadrate makes a blazonable difference.

Alicia


Janice Murphy wrote:

>For the Lionsdale shire badge:
>"Fieldless, a cross formy quadrate sable."- basically the Lionsdale cross  
>Client has not seen any conflicts as yet but was a bit confused by which  
>crosses conflicted with which.  Any help you can give would be most  
>appreciated.
>
>Lady Isolde the Celt
>Conflict Deputy for the Tir Righ College of Heralds
>
>
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