[tirrigh-heralds] I'll give this a try as well

[Judy Harcus]

Tomas wrote:

> Greetings;
>
> I'm not certain that I'll submit this badge, but I felt that it was a 
> good idea to try running it through the OandA.
>
> Fieldless, on a pale vert three plates
> or
> Fieldless, on a pale vert three roundels argent
>
> If I understand these two are the same.

Yes, these are identical as a plate is a fancy way of saying roundel argent.

First let's check for style issues.  Check the Rules for Submission 
VIII.5 Fieldless Style.  "Fieldless armory must form a self-contained 
design.  A fieldless design must have all its elements conjoined, like 
the three feathers issuinf form a crown used by the Heir Apparent to the 
throne of England.  Since there is no field in such a design, it may not 
use charges that rely on the edges of the field to define their shape, 
such as bordures and orles, nor to cut off their ends, such as 
ordinaries or charges throughout."

So what does a pale couped look like?  A saltire couped is fairly 
obvious - it's an X.  To me, a pale couped would be the same as a billet 
(which is basically a tall rectangle).

Taking a look at the precedents, I couldn't find anything specific about 
allowing/disallowing a pale couped, however I did find this in the 
precedents of Elizabeth de Rossignol, under Fieldless:
"[(Fieldless) On a billet fesswise vert, seven annulets interlaced in 
fess Or.] This is returned for style problems. First, a billet is a 
shape used for heraldic display. This appears to be a display of Vert, 
seven annulets interlaced in fess Or. As precedent notes:

    We do not register fieldless badges which appear to be independent
    forms of armorial display. Charges such as lozenges, billets, and
    roundels are all both standard heraldic charges and "shield shapes"
    for armorial display. ...

Therefore, a "shield shape" which is also a standard heraldic charge 
will be acceptable as a fieldless badge in a plain tincture, as long as 
the tincture is not one of the plain tinctures that is protected armory 
in the SCA. This explicitly overturns the precedent "We do not normally 
register fieldless badges consisting only of forms of armorial display, 
such as roundels, lozenges and delfs in plain tinctures, since in use 
the shape does not appear to be a charge, but rather the field itself" 
(LoAR January 1998).Note that this does not change our long-standing 
policy about such "shield shape" charges used in fieldless badges if the 
tincture is not plain (thus, divided or with a field treatment), or if 
the charge is itself charged. Such armory will continue to be returned 
for the appearance of an independent form of armorial display.[Solveig 
Throndardottir, 04/02, A-Æthelmearc] [Brion Gennadyevich Gorodin, 07/05 
<http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2005/07/05-07lar.html>, R-Trimaris]"

So I suspect that your proposed badge would be considered the same as 
"Vert, three plates".

Maybe Teceangl or someone can find additional information on this.

Alicia

>
> Now, I get one CD for being fieldless.  I have a CD against anything 
> with a different primary charge (pale vert).  Now if I understand this 
> then, even though fieldless is a tincture difference I also have a CD 
> against other tinctures of Pale.  So anything that was pale sable etc 
> does not conflict.
>
> So I'm looking for other pale verts with secondary or tertiary charges.
>
>    Argent semy of oak leaves, on a pale vert a fleur-de-lys Or.
>    Argent semy of strawberry leaves, on  a pale vert, a wolf salient 
> argent.
>    Argent semy-de-lys azure, on a pale vert a Celtic cross  argent.
>    Argent, on a pale vert a crescent above three acorns Or.
> There are a number of these that are similar, but am I correct in 
> thinking that by having a different tertiary charge I have a CD?
>
>    Argent, on a pale vert between in chief two wolves combattant sable 
> three mullets  Or.
> There are also a number like this with charges to the sides of the 
> pale.  I assume that they would be secondary charges?  As long as they 
> don't have the same tertiary charge as mine I am totally fine, correct?
>
> Am I missing anything?
>
> -TdC
>
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